Basket hilted swords

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Cathey,
Sure am glad to see you back! as I would like to see this thread continue. These amazing swords are wonderful to see here as they offer so much opportunity to learn more on them.
This latest addition of a mid 18th century dragoon sword is a great example, and with the mysterious oval aperture in the hilt which has been the subject of considerable debate. I am inclined to agree with A. Darling in its most probable purpose to hold reins while handling the pistol in the other hand .

As always, I am drawn to the blades and markings, and this backsword has the inlaid brass (latten) anchor, but curiously situated almost off center near the fuller. As noted in the previous example (post #179) the anchor is seen situated at the terminus of fullers (very much in earlier Spanish styles adopted in Solingen in 17th century). Clearly that offers compelling suggestion the blade is from that century .

In the case of this sword, I am wondering if perhaps this is a backsword blade from a 'mortuary' type sword of mid 17th c. and possibly from the Hounslow factory. It is of course pure speculation at this point, but these German smiths used markings of their Solingen counterparts and often inlaid in latten, most notably the 'running wolf'.
Is it possible this blade could be of such provenance? Its curious position and placement seem to indicate such possibility, however it is known that German blades were brought in later at the turn of the century. Perhaps then this 'anchored' blade could be of that origin?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Please see http://www.oldswords.com/articles/Th...words-v1i4.pdf gfor a fine article on the weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[E.B. Erickson]

On the blade of Cathey's latest baskethilt post: take a look at the blade of her S hilt brass basket on page 1 of this thread. Same blade. I have personally seen multiple examples of this blade type in the brass S hilts of the mid 1700s, and as I recall, Neumann shows one as well. That being said, my bet is that they are German imports of the 1700s.

--ElJay

[Cathey]

HI Guys, another British basket

BASKET-HILT c1745 British Dragoons
Overall Length: 117 cm, (46.1 inches)
Blade length: 101.5 cm, (40 inches) Back blade from hilt for 58cm
Blade widest point: 3.128 cm (1.2 inches)
Marks, etc: Remnants of etched pattern inlaid with gold on both sides. Scottish thistle and sun design still evident

Description
BASKET-HILT British Dragoon Guards Troopers Sword pattern 1745. Unusually Large Basket hilt with typical heart design and English style Bun Pommel. Wide central fuller full length of blade, slight remnants of etched pattern inlaid with gold on both sides. Scottish thistle and sun design still evident. Blade is 101.5 cm, back blade from hilt for 58cm.

Dragoons were originally intended to be used as mounted infantry. In the early 18th century, cavalry was divided into 2 categories - regts of horse and regts of dragoons. The regts of horse were used in the traditional role of heavy cavalry - i.e. shock action. Dragoons were used mainly for reconnaissance - and usually fought dismounted in battle.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 282
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp97 Fig Fle & 125, Fig F17c
Scottish Sword & Shield Catalogue September 1994 Pp 6 No 8.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction Spring 1996 15/5/96 Lot 126.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction Spring 1998 7/10/99 Lot 82.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction 5/5/04 Lot 52
WILKINSON LATHAM, John, SWORDS IN COLOUR Plate 29.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

On the blade of Cathey's latest baskethilt post: take a look at the blade of her S hilt brass basket on page 1 of this thread. Same blade. I have personally seen multiple examples of this blade type in the brass S hilts of the mid 1700s, and as I recall, Neumann shows one as well. That being said, my bet is that they are German imports of the 1700s.

--ElJay

so then my thought in #181 might be right?

[Battara]

Coming to the party late, I am thankful to you folks for this thread. I didn't know there was an Irish hilt! Now that I have some slight idea of that, I am confused on the Scottish. I know Cathy you mentioned that British and Scottish hilts are hard to distinguish, so would it then be in the pommel buns that would be the decider between Scottish and British styles?

BTW - I have always been interested in Scottish basket hilts, especially during the 18th century. One day when I grow up, I'll own one..........

[Cathey]

Hi

Sadly their is not absolute way to be certain about the origin of many basket hilts by pommel alone. However, this is a good start. Generally the typical bun pommel will indicate an English sword etc. The trap is that swords get damaged over time and repaired locally and the blacksmith may not be to particular about which pommel they put back on a sword being repaired etc. I have found MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS a good help when it comes to referencing pommel types for age and nationality.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Here's my next basket.

English, ca. 1620

32 1/2" de blade, with short central fuller.

Excavated condition, but retains part of the grip and both brass wire Turk's head knots. The knucklebows are screwed to the pommel. Interestingly, this basket has the feature of a screw-on capstan. Most hilts of this basic pattern are dated in the late 1500s, but I date this one to the 1620s because of the total lack of the long quillions that characterize earlier examples.

An interesting feature of this sword (and something that I didn't think to photograph!) is what looks like langets at the blade shoulder. However, what appears to be langets are actually a repair. This blade apparently broke right where the tang meets the shoulder. The repair was effected by making a tang that has ears protruding on either side of the blade. The blade was inserted
between the ears and the whole welded back together. I'll be able to access my collection again in a few weeks, and will try to remember to photograph the repair.

[E.B. Erickson]

Another one.

English? Scottish? Probably dates 1680 - 1720 or so.

31 1/2" de blade with two narrow fullers extending about 8" down the blade. No stamps or inscriptions are present.

Hilt of fairly typical form for the late 1600s with plain unpierced panels with some simple filed/engraved lines. The grip appears to be original. An interesting feature of this sword is that rivets have been used to reinforce the hammer welds (see last photo). However, there's also an additional hole by the blade, and what is this hole for??? Securing the liner?
This is one of the lightest basket hilted swords I have seen. The hilt is composed of rather thin elements, and the weight of the sword is about 1.8 pounds.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi

Sadly their is not absolute way to be certain about the origin of many basket hilts by pommel alone. However, this is a good start. Generally the typical bun pommel will indicate an English sword etc. The trap is that swords get damaged over time and repaired locally and the blacksmith may not be to particular about which pommel they put back on a sword being repaired etc. I have found MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS a good help when it comes to referencing pommel types for age and nationality.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

Thank you both. I'll look into this resource.

Jose

[E.B. Erickson]

The first of my Mortuary swords. This one may not even qualify as a basket or half basket (not enough protective bars making up the hilt), but since Mazansky covers Morts in his book, this sword is not inappropriate for this thread!

Mid 1600s in date, with a 32 3/4" de blade inscribed on one side "+ SOLIDEO +" and the other side "+ GLORIA +".

What makes this sword of interest is that it has a thumbring, a feature not found commonly on English swords. The hilt decoration is composed of four grotesque faces, and foliage with some sparse piercings. The grip is one of my restorations, and the diagonal lines seen in places on the blade are artifacts of where some idiot in the past used an angle grinder on it.

[E.B. Erickson]

English, early 1700s.

30" se straight blade with a single back fuller, stamped on both sides with a running fox and SH.

This is apparently a grenadier's baskethilt of the 23rd Regiment: the Royal Welsh Fusileers. The grip is of embossed brass, each side with a crown, POW feathers, the motto "ICH DIEN", and a Hanoverian horse. Neumann shows this same grip design on an S hilted hanger (sword 26S), which is dated to about 1745. I think that the sword shown here is a pattern used ca 1700 by the 23rd. The blade is not shortened, and the fuller ends about 7" from the blade tip.

Mazansky shows several hilts of this type in his book.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

English, early 1700s.

30" se straight blade with a single back fuller, stamped on both sides with a running fox and SH.

This is apparently a grenadier's baskethilt of the 23rd Regiment: the Royal Welsh Fusileers. The grip is of embossed brass, each side with a crown, POW feathers, the motto "ICH DIEN", and a Hanoverian horse. Neumann shows this same grip design on an S hilted hanger (sword 26S), which is dated to about 1745. I think that the sword shown here is a pattern used ca 1700 by the 23rd. The blade is not shortened, and the fuller ends about 7" from the blade tip.

Mazansky shows several hilts of this type in his book.

Salaams E.B. Erickson The running fox with SH beautifully illustrated on the blades is of course from the Wood Street, Shotley Bridge Factory !! now refurbished as a fine house. What is not that well known is that the company also acquired the local Inn closeby... The Crown and Crossed Swords.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

My deliberate mistake above... SH stands for the mark of Samuel Harvey....of which there were 3; Father Son and Grandson...all involved in sword manufacture based in Birmingham. Does anyone know which ones used the SH blademark and which used the H only mark ?...all inside the body of the Running Fox.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Cathey]

Hi Eljay,

Great collection of baskets and I particularly like #191 the mortuary sword. Like you I have never seen one with a thumb ring before

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Eljay,

Great collection of baskets and I particularly like #191 the mortuary sword. Like you I have never seen one with a thumb ring before

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Interesting indeed as I also never recall seeing a thumb ring on a 'mortuary' type hilt. It seems that a good number of these swords were fabricated in the Hounslow factory, which was of course largely comprised of German makers brought into England earlier under the auspices of the King.

Is it possible that this characteristically European , especially German, feature may have been incorporated into this and perhaps a number of these hilts recalling those traditions?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

My deliberate mistake above... SH stands for the mark of Samuel Harvey....of which there were 3; Father Son and Grandson...all involved in sword manufacture based in Birmingham. Does anyone know which ones used the SH blademark and which used the H only mark ?...all inside the body of the Running Fox.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim,
The whole Hounslow/Shotley Bridge/ Samuel Harvey circumstances in British swords have been a virtual conundrum which most collectors have found daunting at best.

The Shotley Bridge factory actually evolved around 1687 with Hermann Mohll and some of the makers of the Hounslow enterprise of earlier in the century comprised of German makers brought in for this purpose. They were closed down c. 1703 then reopened c. 1716 (if I recall correctly) .
It seems a good number of swords from earlier blades, probably Hounslow, did use the 'Passau wolf' (running wolf), however it has been suggested that earlier Shotley Bridge weapons also used this.

The 'Samuel Harvey' dynasty began in England with Samuel Harvey Sr. (b. 1698). His production was at 74 High Street, and continued until his death in 1778.
His son Samuel Harvey Jr. was with him in business , and moved to 4 Cannon Street in 1789. His son Samuel Harvey III was with him in business.
Jr. died in 1795, and in turn his son took over until his death in 1810.

Effectively, the Harveys made swords from c. 1716 until 1810.

It is known that the mid 18th century hangers and some other of their blades were marked with a running 'fox'. These are apparently a nod to the running wolf of the Passau/Solingen fame (clearly a fox with its notably plumed tail) and typically had the initials S H in the body.

There seem to be variations, and in some cases only the H is seen, however it is unclear whether in these case the missing letters are simply worn away or indeed never placed there).
I have seen one example of the Passau type wolf with an H, and one suggestion it might have been a Hounslow sword, but that idea was discounted and the idea of it being a Harvey variant suggested....but since it is the rough chiseled 'wolf' character, not the 'fox', it seems unlikely.

Many of the Harvey blades are simply stamped with the name S Harvey,
no fox, and near the hilt, not on the blade center. Others are seen with HARVEY alone.
There has been no evidence I am aware of that any particular variation of the fox and initials, or the stamped name were favored or used distinctively by any one of the Harvey men. It does seem the running fox with the SH initials are more consistant on the hangers of mid 18th century however.

That's the best I can figure so far, and I wanted to thank you for bringing up this interesting element concerning these blades and makers which as seen do occasionally occur in the blades of these swords.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim,
The whole Hounslow/Shotley Bridge/ Samuel Harvey circumstances in British swords have been a virtual conundrum which most collectors have found daunting at best.

The Shotley Bridge factory actually evolved around 1687 with Hermann Mohll and some of the makers of the Hounslow enterprise of earlier in the century comprised of German makers brought in for this purpose. They were closed down c. 1703 then reopened c. 1716 (if I recall correctly) .
It seems a good number of swords from earlier blades, probably Hounslow, did use the 'Passau wolf' (running wolf), however it has been suggested that earlier Shotley Bridge weapons also used this.

The 'Samuel Harvey' dynasty began in England with Samuel Harvey Sr. (b. 1698). His production was at 74 High Street, and continued until his death in 1778.
His son Samuel Harvey Jr. was with him in business , and moved to 4 Cannon Street in 1789. His son Samuel Harvey III was with him in business.
Jr. died in 1795, and in turn his so took over until his death in 1810.

Effectively, the Harveys made swords from c. 1716 until 1810.

It is known that the mid 18th century hangers and some other of their blades were marked with a running 'fox'. These are apparently a nod to the running wolf of the Passau/Solingen fame (clearly a fox with its notably plumed tail) and typically had the initials S H in the body.

There seem to be variations, and in some cases only the H is seen, however it is unclear whether in these case the missing letters are simply worn away or indeed never placed there).
I have seen one example of the Passau type wolf with an H, and one suggestion it might have been a Hounslow sword, but that idea was discounted and the idea of it being a Harvey variant suggested....but since it is the rough chiseled 'wolf' character, not the 'fox', it seems unlikely.

Many of the Harvey blades are simply stamped with the name S Harvey,
no fox, and near the hilt, not on the blade center. Others are seen with HARVEY alone.
There has been no evidence I am aware of that any particular variation of the fox and initials, or the stamped name were favored or used distinctively by any one of the Harvey men. It does seem the running fox with the SH initials are more consistant on the hangers of mid 18th century however.

That's the best I can figure so far, and I wanted to thank you for bringing up this interesting element concerning these blades and makers which as seen do occasionally occur in the blades of these swords.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim, That is a great assist on Samuel Harvey...I have a sword with one collector associate with the HAR stacked above VEY in a sort of block stamp.. Thank you very much for your help on this and looking around I note how difficult the conundrum on the Harveys actually is. Much appreciated !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[E.B. Erickson]

Jim,
Thanks for the comments on the Harvey clan - very helpful.

Cathey/Ibrahim,
Regarding thumbrings on Mortuary swords, I was unaware of their existence until about 7 years ago, when one showed up on an auction site. The one I own came up for sale shortly thereafter, and I've been on the lookout for others ever since then. Mazansky does have around 6 Morts shown in his book that have thumbrings, but as I recall he doesn't always mention the presence of a thumbring in the descriptions. Examine the photos and you'll find them.

[Cathey]

Nationality English
Overall Length: 99 cm (39 inches)
Blade length: 84 cm (33.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 4cm (1.6 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13 cm
Inside grip length: 8.4 cm

Description
Troopers version of the Howard hilt cavalry sword. Typical flattened circular pommel, leather wire bound, good condition grip with steel basket guard of squared lattice panels, large trailing rein loop oval panel. One central fuller 17cm long which starts 4 ½ cm down from hilt. Howard 3rd dragoon Guards commissioned from 1748-1765. Good condition for age, some pitting.

The term Howard hilt comes from the connection based on plate 43 in John Wallace’s Scottish Swords and Dirks. Wallace connected the pattern with Howard based on a similar sword in a portrait of General Sir Charles Howard in the uniform of the 3rd Dragoon Guards.

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp184. 186 & 232
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 29.S
SOUTWICK, Leslie, The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 143 No 389.
Wallace, John Scottish Swords and Dirks an illustrated Guide to Scottish Weapons plate 43.
Wallace John Scottish Swords and Dirks Plate 43.
WALLIS & WALLIS Connoisseur Collectors Sale Spring 1996 1/5/96 Lot 133.
Weller & Dufty Sale 11409 lot 1287 (shows Scabbard) pp33

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The whole idea here is to learn from these weapons, which we are all doing together, so no such thing as an amateur....especially when one has the courage to step forward and make an entry regardless of status.
Thank you so much!

Very much agreed, the blades are intriguing, and offer us much toward learning more on the history of each sword as a whole.

On that note, I would ask more on a question Cathey directed to Eljay (post #89) concerning the Samuel Harvey mark often seen on British dragoon blades, in many cases initials SH in the running wolf.
It seems that at some point the 'S' was dropped and the 'H' stood alone on the 'wolf' (fox as termed in England).


I tried to find what I could on the Birmingham swordsmith Samuel Harvey, which apparently was the name of Samuel Sr. (b.1698) ; junior, and his son the third. Senior died in 1778; junior in 1795 and grandson in 1810.
Since all three had the same name , that would not be the cause of the omission of the S.

It would seem that there were a number of variations in marks, in that a slotted hilt (c.1780) had a crown over H/vey....some were marked S.Harvey with no fox.....some cavalry blades were inscribed Harvey and one example (I think in Neumann) has a fox with only the H, dating from 1750-68.

Does anyone have more data on variations of Harvey stamps?
While on many types of swords, some of the British dragoon basket hilts had Harvey blades......any examples?

Salaams Jim, I stumbled upon this http://drbenjaminchurchjr.blogspot.c...3_archive.html which examines the Hounslow Factory(and a possible copy of a sword in the USA) and indicates that the H in the Fox is from that Foundry...thus perhaps not the Harvey designation. I have somewhere in a pile of notes a sword photo with the Harvey stamp in a block with HAR then VEY underneath.

Salaams Cathey ~ May this have a bearing on your #154 and #156. The single H being for Hounslow not Harvey?

Quote" A "Hounslow Mark" was placed on a sword manufactured in Great Britain by the Hounslow Sword Factory, established in 1629 when a number of German swordsmiths emigrated from the continent to England to begin work at a sword factory, located in Hounslow about 12 miles just to the west of London, that was established by an entrepreneur named Benjamin Stone. The different swordmakers put their individual marks on the blades they manufactured but some put their names on instead. Many blades were left unmarked. Not a great deal is known about the individual marks but the swords produced by the Hounslow factory were the best made in England, even if they did not quite match the quality of the swords made on the continent. The Hounslow factory made thousands of blades and swords".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Cathey]

Hi Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I thought you may have solved this mystery until I looked at the dates Hounslow was in business. I have gone through a few articles on the Hounslow makers and whilst two of these show pictures of the fox with the H and describe this as an authentic Hounslow mark, there is no historical link in the body of the articles to support this or link it with a particular maker.

It appears Hounslow opened for business in 1620 and ceased manufacturing in 1660, which in some cases is earlier than a number of blades I have seen that bear this particular mark.

One explanation might be that a family that left the Hounslow business continued to use the mark into the 1700’s. Time wise the Harvey family remain a better fit for the dates of swords bearing this variation on the fox mark which we do know they used. Also apart from the missing S, the fox mark is virtually identical to the one used by Harvey.

If we could find a link between the Harvey’s and Hounslow then we might be on to something.

Cheers Cathey

[Cathey]

Date: 1740-55
Nationality: British
Overall Length: 103.5 cm (40.7 inches)
Blade length: 87.4 cm (34.4 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.673 cm (1.4 inches)
Hilt widest point: 10.6 cm (4.2 inches)
Inside grip length: 9.5 cm (3.7 inches)
Marks, etc.: Mark ANDREA and the 17th century version of the so-called “Passau running wolf

Description
The hilt is constructed of fine iron cage work three quarter guard formed of a vertical and horizontal arrangement of narrow bars joined at the top by three scrolled bars, each with pierced diamond-shaped central panel, to a ring beneath the pommel. The spaces beneath the guard with three openwork hearts. There are a number of very old period repairs to some of the bars and one of the front bars has a crack toward the blade. The grip is leather warped with brass wire. The pommel, an Adams style urn shaped one, is almost certainly a replacement dating from 1785-95. The broadsword blade has three short central fullers and bears the mark ANDREA and the 17th century version of the so-called “Passau running wolf mark”.

General Remarks
Described by the Baron of Earlshall as “An English Cavalry sword, very probably for an Officer in the Household Cavalry and dating from 1740-55. The pommel, an Adams style urn shaped one, is almost certainly a replacement dating from 1785-95. However, it has an extremely good 17th century double edge blade mounted.”

The term Howard hilt comes from the connection based on plate 43 in John Wallace’s Scottish Swords and Dirks. Wallace connected the pattern with Howard based on a similar sword in a portrait of General Sir Charles Howard in the uniform of the 3rd Dragoon Guards.

References:
Bonhams Knightsbridge Wednesday 26th November 2008 London lot 89 pp33.
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 29.S
WALLACE, John SCOTTISH SWORDS AND DIRKS plate 43


Cheers Cathey and Rex

[fernando]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

... Mid 1600s in date, with a 32 3/4" de blade inscribed on one side "+ SOLIDEO +" and the other side "+ GLORIA +"...

Hi Eljay.
Most probably there is nothing new in what i am saying but, the term SOLIDEO may have a rather intentional meaning, when inscribed in a sword. As you know, the solideo is a cap used by bishops and such name originates in the latin "soli Deo tollitur", which means "only before god you take it off". I just thought its inscription in a blade will have the same purpose; something like "only in the name of God you will unsheath it" .

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the thoughts on SOLIDEO GLORIA.

It also means SOLI = only DEO = God GLORIA = glory; so "to God alone belongs the glory", or "Glory only to God" or something similar. A sentiment that fits well with the Puritan theology of many of the Commonwealth forces during the ECW!

--ElJay

[fernando]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the thoughts on SOLIDEO GLORIA.

It also means SOLI = only DEO = God GLORIA = glory; so "to God alone belongs the glory", or "Glory only to God" or something similar. A sentiment that fits well with the Puritan theology of many of the Commonwealth forces during the ECW!

--ElJay

Hello Eljay,
I assume your reasoning is indeed better mine, specially the second expression.
... this assuming that you are addressing fernando, not Ibrahiim .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the thoughts on SOLIDEO GLORIA.

It also means SOLI = only DEO = God GLORIA = glory; so "to God alone belongs the glory", or "Glory only to God" or something similar. A sentiment that fits well with the Puritan theology of many of the Commonwealth forces during the ECW!

--ElJay

Soli-Fernando ...That is thanks only to Fernando ..as I had nothing to do with it Ibrahiim al Balooshi..

[E.B. Erickson]

Mistaken identity! Sorry about that!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Mistaken identity! Sorry about that!

[kronckew]

too many Fernandos here (fernando k vs. fernando) do not spoil the broth, but i can get a bit dizzy keeping track of who's who.
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