WHERE IS THIS MATCHLOCK FROM?

[kahnjar1]

Originally discussed here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19810, the origins of this one have not in my opinion been narrowed down. Certainly # 2 in the original post is from India, but I am not convinced that this one is from there.
If you refer to the page from Egerton showing different Torador stock shapes, you do not see this particular one among them.
The stock is more of the shape seen on Ottoman arms but the side profile is wrong for them.
I really would like to find out more definitely where this particular matchlock comes from.
Stu

[rickystl]

Hi Stu.
Is that a flat iron/metal butt plate? I never really noticed till you just now brought this up. But you're right. The rear of the butt stock is not really done in Indian fashion. More Ottoman - but not. LOL I see the dilemma here. Hmmm. Also the length of the butt stock seems more a standard type length versus the extra long length of the Indian made stocks. I'm now wondering if the Indian made barrel was re-used sometime back in the period to make the current gun? Possibly another Region where the barrel was re-stocked to suite local tastes? Of course, I'm just speculating here. But you're right. I've never seen that style of butt stock on an all Indian made matchlock. Most curious.
Rick.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Rick,
The butt plate is flat iron fixed by two pins/nails. See pic, and sorry for a bit out of focus but you get the idea........
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Any ideas gentlemen? Someone surely must have an opinion.............

[David R]

I would have a look at guns from the Caucasus, usually flint or miquelet locks I know but the stock shape seems right for the area.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by David R

I would have a look at guns from the Caucasus, usually flint or miquelet locks I know but the stock shape seems right for the area.

Hi David,
Yes I agree with your thoughts. Am almost 100% sure that India is NOT the origin, though the barrel decoration is very much the same as the other matchlock in the original post, which IS Indian.
My other thoughts were that it may be Indo/Arab but it is quite plain to be from that area. Usually these guns are silver decorated. As you say the stock shape generally resembles Caucasus or Ottoman. Hopefully there will be more replies to confirm your suggestion.
Stu

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Originally discussed here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19810, the origins of this one have not in my opinion been narrowed down.
The stock is more of the shape seen on Ottoman arms but the side profile is wrong for them.
I really would like to find out more definitely where this particular matchlock comes from.
Stu

Stu, I dont know of many Ottoman matchlock images to compare against but here are two.

[kahnjar1]

Thank you very much for posting these.
I think we are getting close........

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thank you very much for posting these.
I think we are getting close........

Is the barrel rifled?

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Is the barrel rifled?

No, it is smoothbore.

[Kubur]

Hi Stu
I would like to add these two matchlocks that I saw in Istanbul.
They say "Turkish tufek", mmmm why not, I found them very similar to the Arabian ones...
Kubur

[rickystl]

Hi Stu.
I keep looking at this gun. And keep scratching my head. LOL!
When I look at the long cut out for the trigger, spring, and bar - with no metal cover over the cut out, it made me think Khyber Pass. Then I started theorizing the barrel was restocked in a different region sometime during the period. But, there is nothing about the gun that looks Afghan/Khyber. The butt stock, to me, only looks Ottoman from one angle. And there is very little drop in the butt stock. But go to Elgood's Firearms of the Islamic World, and turn to page 149. The butt stock of those two guns look very close to your's. At least to me.
Rick.

[rickystl]

Hi Estcrh.
That's a really nice Ottoman matchlock. For what it's worth department, every Ottoman, Afghan, etc. barrel that I've seen, that had a rifled barrel, used 8 groove rifling. That must have been the primary standard for the period. Just an interesting side note.
Rick.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.
I keep looking at this gun. And keep scratching my head. LOL!
When I look at the long cut out for the trigger, spring, and bar - with no metal cover over the cut out, it made me think Khyber Pass. Then I started theorizing the barrel was restocked in a different region sometime during the period. But, there is nothing about the gun that looks Afghan/Khyber. The butt stock, to me, only looks Ottoman from one angle. And there is very little drop in the butt stock. But go to Elgood's Firearms of the Islamic World, and turn to page 149. The butt stock of those two guns look very close to your's. At least to me.
Rick.

Yes you are right, but the problem is that the top view is not shown. Certainly the stock "drop" is very similar. I also note your comment regarding smooth versus rifled bore.
Stu

Stu

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Stu
I would like to add these two matchlocks that I saw in Istanbul.
They say "Turkish tufek", mmmm why not, I found them very similar to the Arabian ones...
Kubur

The left hand one is Indo Arab in my opinion and probably from Yemen. The others I will pass on, but I am not sure about the "TUFEK" label...........Shape looks wrong to me.
Stu