Austrian flintlock Pistol for id

Cerjak · 15th February 2015, 11:40 AM

Who could tell me which model is it ,this pistol is CIRCA 43 cm ,I found a similar pistol but with percussion lock called Kavalleriepistole M-1851.
Any comment on it will be welcome.
BEST

Cerjak

fernando · 15th February 2015, 12:09 PM

Isn't that the Poinçon de Liege, Jean-Luc ?

.
... and isn't the one you found similar, the same model later converted to percussion ?

.

fernando · 15th February 2015, 12:58 PM

In other words ...

Your example would be the Austrian cavalry pistol Model 1798. This pistol type later became Model 1851 when it received the Augustin system percussion lock. Some surplus of this Austrian arms were delivered to US forces in the early days of the Civil War.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Augustin_Model_1851

Cerjak · 15th February 2015, 02:15 PM

Hi Fernando

Yes the M1798 has the same type au stock but the lock is different with a brass flash pan.( see the photos) and as you can see my pistol lock is more similar in design to the percution lock M 1851 .
So I was wondering it was not a transition model after the m 1798 and before the M 1851.
Best
Jean-Luc

Fernando K · 15th February 2015, 03:38 PM

hello

For me, is a Belgian copy, the punch of Liege and the number "852" which means 1852

Affectionately. Fernando K

corrado26 · 15th February 2015, 05:45 PM

This was originally an Austrian pistol M 1851 system Augustin, a special Percussion system only used in Austria. After the German-Austrian War of 1866 Austria sold lots of these pistols to the market. Liège Dealers and gunmakers bought them in great quantities and built them back to flintlocks. These reconverted pistols have than been sold to states in South America and given as exchange material to African clan chiefs in the European overseas colonies.

corrado26

Cerjak · 15th February 2015, 06:50 PM

Hi Corrado,
I found an eagle mark on the lock so I believe it could be a pistol for the American market.
Thank you for your help.

Cerjak

corrado26 · 16th February 2015, 09:03 AM

No, this eagle mark is the proofmark of Vienna!
corrado26

fernando · 16th February 2015, 03:18 PM

So we have that Lean-Luc's (Cerjak) pistol bears the Liege proof mark on the barrel and the Austrian eagle and date of manufacture on the lock.
What does this bring us to ? If it was sent to Liege for reconversion, is it plausible that Austrian flint locks were sent together with the pistols ?
Or is it that Liege workshops were instructed to mark the new Liege made locks with the the Austrian eagle?

Cerjak · 16th February 2015, 04:19 PM

I found same pistols sold by christies
see below description and pics
A BRACE OF AUSTRIAN 16.9mm FLINTLOCK SERVICE PISTOLS
EACH MARKED '852' FOR 1852
Each with tapering barrel, iron tang, flat bevelled lock with date mark, iron pan and double-headed eagle stamp on the tail, beech full stock, iron trigger-plate, brass mounts including fore-end barrel-band also incorporating the fore-sight and pommel fitted with an iron lanyard-loop, and iron ramrod (iron parts discoloured with some light corrosion marking), numerous inspection marks and Liege proof
9 7/8in. (25.1cm.) barrels (2)

corrado26 · 16th February 2015, 04:37 PM

It is very, very simple: All Augustin pistols had this Vienna proofmark. After 1866 these pistols with this proofmark have been sold as percussion pistols with the Augustin system to Liège gunmakers and dealers. After the reconversion to flintlocks they had to be proofed according the Belgian laws. So they got the "ELG" mark on the barrel. Quite simple, isn't it!
corrado26

fernando · 16th February 2015, 05:13 PM

This meaning that the (Austrian) plate of the lock remained the same; only the firing mechanisms having being replaced.
Alright then

.

corrado26 · 16th February 2015, 05:39 PM

Yes, that's it.
All this flintlock pistols are no original Austrian ones, they have been created in the arms facotries of Liège out of former Austrian percussion pistols M 1851 System Augustin. Their lockplates rermained always the same, only a pan and a flintlock cock had to be added, that's all.

Unfortunately lots of these "fake" pistols are sold by auctioneers and dealers as originals................. although it was very easy to check it: The years of making the pistols in Austria is stamped on the lockplate as a three Digit number as "851" or "852" for 1851 or 1852, and a serious collector of flintlock or percussion pistols should know that in 1851 the time of the flintlock in Europe was over since at least 10 years!!
corrado26

15th February 2015, 11:40 AM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Austrian flintlock Pistol for id Who could tell me which model is it ,this pistol is CIRCA 43 cm ,I found a similar pistol but with percussion lock called Kavalleriepistole M-1851. Any comment on it will be welcome. BEST Cerjak Attached Images

15th February 2015, 12:09 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Isn't that the Poinçon de Liege, Jean-Luc ? . ... and isn't the one you found similar, the same model later converted to percussion ? . Attached Images

15th February 2015, 02:15 PM	#4
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Hi Fernando Yes the M1798 has the same type au stock but the lock is different with a brass flash pan.( see the photos) and as you can see my pistol lock is more similar in design to the percution lock M 1851 . So I was wondering it was not a transition model after the m 1798 and before the M 1851. Best Jean-Luc Attached Images

15th February 2015, 06:50 PM	#7
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Hi Corrado, I found an eagle mark on the lock so I believe it could be a pistol for the American market. Thank you for your help. Cerjak Attached Images

16th February 2015, 04:19 PM	#10
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	I found same pistols sold by christies see below description and pics A BRACE OF AUSTRIAN 16.9mm FLINTLOCK SERVICE PISTOLS EACH MARKED '852' FOR 1852 Each with tapering barrel, iron tang, flat bevelled lock with date mark, iron pan and double-headed eagle stamp on the tail, beech full stock, iron trigger-plate, brass mounts including fore-end barrel-band also incorporating the fore-sight and pommel fitted with an iron lanyard-loop, and iron ramrod (iron parts discoloured with some light corrosion marking), numerous inspection marks and Liege proof 9 7/8in. (25.1cm.) barrels (2) Attached Images

15th February 2015, 12:58 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	In other words ... Your example would be the Austrian cavalry pistol Model 1798. This pistol type later became Model 1851 when it received the Augustin system percussion lock. Some surplus of this Austrian arms were delivered to US forces in the early days of the Civil War. http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Augustin_Model_1851

15th February 2015, 03:38 PM	#5
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	hello For me, is a Belgian copy, the punch of Liege and the number "852" which means 1852 Affectionately. Fernando K

15th February 2015, 05:45 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	This was originally an Austrian pistol M 1851 system Augustin, a special Percussion system only used in Austria. After the German-Austrian War of 1866 Austria sold lots of these pistols to the market. Liège Dealers and gunmakers bought them in great quantities and built them back to flintlocks. These reconverted pistols have than been sold to states in South America and given as exchange material to African clan chiefs in the European overseas colonies. corrado26

16th February 2015, 09:03 AM	#8
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	No, this eagle mark is the proofmark of Vienna! corrado26

16th February 2015, 03:18 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So we have that Lean-Luc's (Cerjak) pistol bears the Liege proof mark on the barrel and the Austrian eagle and date of manufacture on the lock. What does this bring us to ? If it was sent to Liege for reconversion, is it plausible that Austrian flint locks were sent together with the pistols ? Or is it that Liege workshops were instructed to mark the new Liege made locks with the the Austrian eagle?

16th February 2015, 04:37 PM	#11
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	It is very, very simple: All Augustin pistols had this Vienna proofmark. After 1866 these pistols with this proofmark have been sold as percussion pistols with the Augustin system to Liège gunmakers and dealers. After the reconversion to flintlocks they had to be proofed according the Belgian laws. So they got the "ELG" mark on the barrel. Quite simple, isn't it! corrado26

16th February 2015, 05:13 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This meaning that the (Austrian) plate of the lock remained the same; only the firing mechanisms having being replaced. Alright then .

16th February 2015, 05:39 PM	#13
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Yes, that's it. All this flintlock pistols are no original Austrian ones, they have been created in the arms facotries of Liège out of former Austrian percussion pistols M 1851 System Augustin. Their lockplates rermained always the same, only a pan and a flintlock cock had to be added, that's all. Unfortunately lots of these "fake" pistols are sold by auctioneers and dealers as originals................. although it was very easy to check it: The years of making the pistols in Austria is stamped on the lockplate as a three Digit number as "851" or "852" for 1851 or 1852, and a serious collector of flintlock or percussion pistols should know that in 1851 the time of the flintlock in Europe was over since at least 10 years!! corrado26