Chinese (or other country) sai/parrying weapon

[Neil]

"Neil, do you have any pictures of the Qing era Chinese prison guards, that would be interesting. I myself would call something rare when there are almost no images available online."

"Here is something I think we can agree is probably an indicator of Chinese manufacture, this particular four sided cross section. I have never seen a sai from either Indonesia or Okinawa that had this cross section."

Sorry for the slow response. I am putting my seasonal business to bed for the year and the hours are long.

I am also about to leave town for the weekend but I will share that image when I return. When I found it I was very excited. It is an important piece to the puzzle.

I thought I would also mention that I have owned a forked mace that I know was collected in China with a fully rounded percussion bar like a soda straw. With that said using the shape of the cross section of that area as an indicator of origin may not be the most reliable approach.

It might also be worth mentioning that the grip wrapping style on the mace pictured right above looks quite Chinese to me.

I am loving the actual pair example that Josh posted as well. To me that is rare and worth exploring further.

Lastly, I just want to say this is a great topic and discussion. I really appreciate hearing others thoughts and seeing pieces from their collections.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Neil

"Neil, do you have any pictures of the Qing era Chinese prison guards, that would be interesting. I myself would call something rare when there are almost no images available online."

"Here is something I think we can agree is probably an indicator of Chinese manufacture, this particular four sided cross section. I have never seen a sai from either Indonesia or Okinawa that had this cross section."

Sorry for the slow response. I am putting my seasonal business to bed for the year and the hours are long.

I am also about to leave town for the weekend but I will share that image when I return. When I found it I was very excited. It is an important piece to the puzzle.

I thought I would also mention that I have owned a forked mace that I know was collected in China with a fully rounded percussion bar like a soda straw. With that said using the shape of the cross section of that area as an indicator of origin may not be the most reliable approach.

It might also be worth mentioning that the grip wrapping style on the mace pictured right above looks quite Chinese to me.

I am loving the actual pair example that Josh posted as well. To me that is rare and worth exploring further.

Lastly, I just want to say this is a great topic and discussion. I really appreciate hearing others thoughts and seeing pieces from their collections.

Neil, without enough representitive examples its hard to accutately attribute origin to these type of weapons. To help out I have put together a Pinterest gallery of Chinese sai, mace, truncheons etc. There may be some replicas amoung the images but I have tried by best to weed them out. I think this is the largest collection of Chinese examples in the world.

From these images its easy to see that a four sided cross section whether rectangular, square, diamond shaped etc was very popular. As far as handles go wood, cord seem to be used.

http://www.pinterest.com/worldantiqu...ron-whips-etc/

[Shakethetrees]

As I recall, there are images to be found in the W.O. Oldman catalog.

They are not sai, but basically iron or bronze bars or tapering straight form with sword like hilts.

I will have to locate my copy and see if I can get a clear enough scan to use here. While the pictures are old and a bit faded, I believe the add a few interesting types that are scarcely seen these days.

In reading translated accounts of riots and crowd control during the 19th century's many upheavals I recall that they simply called these weapons "iron bars". This is probably due to translation issues as the Chinese term for them is never mentioned.

I will have a look around tonight.

[spiral]

Id guess these may be the weapons the Brits banned in Hong Kong & Shanghai as fighting irons?

It would be fascinating to see old photos of them in situ!

Given the mostly primitive black smithing structure of them Id guess we would have to assume there many fakes out there. Especially from China?

Ive heard hearsay of some being made & sold from Cornwall 20 to 30 years ago, by a fellow who collected & traded authentic Japanese swords....

spiral

[Timo Nieminen]

The various potential "fighting irons" are:

1. Iron ruler (鐵尺 (traditional), 铁尺 (simplified) , Pinyin tiě chǐ). Short iron bar, with or without distinct grip, with or without guard.

2. Jian (usually translated as "mace", 鐧 (traditional), 锏 (simplified), Pinyin jiǎn). Not the same character as jian "sword", which is 劍 (traditional), 剑 (simplified), Pinyin jiàn. Sword length (short sword) rather than dagger length.

3. Bian ("whip", 鞭, Pinyin biān). Apparently distinguished from jian by having a knobbed or segmented shape. Also "hard whip", to distinguish it from jointed metal whips (also bian) and flexible soft whips.

Jian and bian are often called "swordbreakers" in English. They appear in the Ming classic, The Water Margin, as weapons used by some of the heroes. Traditionally used in pairs.

At least some jian/bian are training devices, rather than weapons per se. If they're very heavy, or cast iron: probably trainers.

Some antique and modern examples shown in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16220

Some more examples, some with scabbards:
Pair of tie chi: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2499
Jian:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2004
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2280
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2463
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1704
Long jian: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3624
Bian: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4309

There were also long two-handed jian, like the long one above, but with longer grips.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

As I recall, there are images to be found in the W.O. Oldman catalog.

They are not sai, but basically iron or bronze bars or tapering straight form with sword like hilts.

I will have to locate my copy and see if I can get a clear enough scan to use here. While the pictures are old and a bit faded, I believe the add a few interesting types that are scarcely seen these days.

In reading translated accounts of riots and crowd control during the 19th century's many upheavals I recall that they simply called these weapons "iron bars". This is probably due to translation issues as the Chinese term for them is never mentioned.

I will have a look around tonight.

If you can find any additional images of any type that would be helpful.

[KraVseR]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Timo, as you know sai have been discussed repeatedly on various forums with many claims being made but usually no proof is furnished or images posted to back up what anyone is saying and in the end no new evidence is produced. Here we finally have at least a few images and some information to work with.

I have no knowledge of whether Okinawa produced its own iron products or if they imported tools and weapons from China etc, what I do know is that from the 1600s on Okinawa was under samurai control and I think that would preclude the open importation of weapons except possibly for the use of sanctioned police and security officials. Other individuals would have had to secretly import or forge their own from existing metal supplies. That is why Okinawa developed martial arts and wooden weapons from what I understand. This would also explain the scarcity of antique sai today.

Your one link was to a newspaper / magazine article from the late 1800s early 1900s? depicting the Chinese criminal element brought to American with imported Chinese laborers. It shows the types of weapons confiscated from Chinese criminals including a sai with a wrapped hilt.




The other links is very interesting, its shows a sai from the Royal Armories identified as being Chinese while at the same time it questions were it actually originated and asks for help in identifying it, which is exactly what we are discussing here.

What weapons are depicted on this image? Help please.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by KraVseR

What weapons are depicted on this image? Help please.

Do you mean this image?

[KraVseR]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Do you mean this image?

Yes.

[Timo Nieminen]

If you're asking what they are:
A Chinese fighting knife, of the kind shown/discussed in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15217 and http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15728
A revolver. (Is that the holster at the top above it?)
A pair of butterfly swords (hudiedao) in one scabbard.
What looks like a fan-knife, a knife disguised as a folded fan.
Another (larger) fighting knife like the above.
A cha/sai.
A hatchet (looks Western).
A cooking knife.
A pair of jian maces in one scabbard, like the ones linked a few posts upthread.

[Shakethetrees]

Since we seem to be drifting into a more general discussion, I would like to show a little piece that I've had for thirty years.

It's marked "Made by Rollin White for Smith and Wesson".

.22 caliber short, but the most interesting thing to this discussion (and to me, personally), is that the cylinder is engraved with three Chinese characters (old style) "People of Min (Fujian) Province"

I was stumped on this character but an old Chinese man recognized it and explained that Min Province became Fukien (Fujian in pinyin) sometime in the early 20th century.

This pistol bears a striking resemblance to the one illustrated in the old newspaper article.

It also could have been used in China during one or another revolutionary uprising during the 19th or 20th centuries, or, by a member of a Tong during the aforementioned periods, possibly in San Francisco.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Since we seem to be drifting into a more general discussion, I would like to show a little piece that I've had for thirty years.

It's marked "Made by Rollin White for Smith and Wesson".

.22 caliber short, but the most interesting thing to this discussion (and to me, personally), is that the cylinder is engraved with three Chinese characters (old style) "People of Min (Fujian) Province"

I was stumped on this character but an old Chinese man recognized it and explained that Min Province became Fukien (Fujian in pinyin) sometime in the early 20th century.

This pistol bears a striking resemblance to the one illustrated in the old newspaper article.

It also could have been used in China during one or another revolutionary uprising during the 19th or 20th centuries, or, by a member of a Tong during the aforementioned periods, possibly in San Francisco.

Rollin White (June 6, 1817 – March 22, 1892) was an American gunsmith who invented a bored-through revolver cylinder that allowed metallic cartridges to be loaded from the rear of a revolver's cylinder.

In interesting gun, is it the 7 shot model? Thanks to posting it and your other items, all part of history. I have seen several weapons from other countries end up in China, brought there by foreign military forces, one in particular is a very distintive Indian axe, most likely left by Indian troops serving with the British in China. The other possibility is that the pistol was inscribed in America by a Chinese national working in the US.

[josh stout]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Since we seem to be drifting into a more general discussion, I would like to show a little piece that I've had for thirty years.

It's marked "Made by Rollin White for Smith and Wesson".

.22 caliber short, but the most interesting thing to this discussion (and to me, personally), is that the cylinder is engraved with three Chinese characters (old style) "People of Min (Fujian) Province"

I was stumped on this character but an old Chinese man recognized it and explained that Min Province became Fukien (Fujian in pinyin) sometime in the early 20th century.

This pistol bears a striking resemblance to the one illustrated in the old newspaper article.

It also could have been used in China during one or another revolutionary uprising during the 19th or 20th centuries, or, by a member of a Tong during the aforementioned periods, possibly in San Francisco.

Thanks for posting the very interesting handgun. I am fascinated for a number of reasons, but I am worried that this will get us off the more general thread on "fighting irons" or "sword-breakers". Perhaps you could post a separate thread? I would love to comment.

[KraVseR]

Thanks.

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Since we seem to be drifting into a more general discussion, I would like to show a little piece that I've had for thirty years.

As I said in my initial posting when I put the images of the pistol up, I plan on re posting this in its own thread.

It was only due to the illustration and the almost exact similarity to the pistol shown in the weapons vignette!

[benny.lee]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I've been struggling with this one for a long time.

It's entirely hand wrought iron and I would have no problem assigning an 18th/19th century date.

I'm sure the grip was wrapped at one time.

Any information y'all have will be appreciated, nationality, an accurate name for it, etc.

I suspect it's a KungFu or other discipline weapon, but I'm open to suggestions.

yes
This is China's "hand fork". （手叉）（SHOUCHA)Pair use
Can hit, block and thorn
There are similar weapons in other Asian countries.
Japan, Southeast Asian countries have
The difference lies in the tail, Chinese fork usually have a" eight tail"

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by benny.lee

yes
This is China's "hand fork". （手叉）（SHOUCHA)Pair use
Can hit, block and thorn
There are similar weapons in other Asian countries.
Japan, Southeast Asian countries have
The difference lies in the tail, Chinese fork usually have a" eight tail"

Benny, when is search using 手叉 there are no images of shoucha / sai....just forks, is there another word? Do you think that either of these are Chinese, these are in my collection.

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by benny.lee

Chinese fork usually have a" eight tail"

Do you mean eight sided?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Do you mean eight sided?

Is he referring to the butt being octagon or the shaft?

[benny.lee]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Is he referring to the butt being octagon or the shaft?

Yes, there are eight sides.

[benny.lee]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Benny, when is search using 手叉 there are no images of shoucha / sai....just forks, is there another word? Do you think that either of these are Chinese, these are in my collection.

These two are also China's weapons
Because of this weapon is not a standard equipment, so many of his titles in the civil
Can be called "铁尺"（Iron ruler）（TIE CHI)

[Gavin Nugent]

An image I have on file that was shared elsewhere recently.

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

I bought this quite some time ago in a box lot of Tibet and Mongolian knives and trousse and upon playing with it recently, it is a most effective and destructive little item...the question is, is it actually a weapon, i.e; an iron ruler or something else like a sharpening steel?

It is just under 34.5cms long. the grip is rectangular and shaped for fitment in the hand. The "blade" for want of a better word is thicker and broader than the handle and an elliptical cross section and a tapering tip...no sharp edges, just effective blunt force trauma.
POB is at the half way mark, which is putting all the weight forward but little to no effort in the hand.

Gavin

[josh stout]

Does it have a hairpin lamination? It looks like it has something. How thick is it? It certainly looks like it could be a weapon but I have not seen anything like it.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by josh stout

Does it have a hairpin lamination? It looks like it has something. How thick is it? It certainly looks like it could be a weapon but I have not seen anything like it.

Hi Josh,

No hairpin lamination, but I too see activity within the patina.
It is 7mm thick at the base and 4cms wide.

Gavin

[josh stout]

Thanks for the info Gavin! This is certainly a strange one. It certainly seems too well made and too solid to be anything other than a weapon, but I have seen laminated heat-treated scissors. The "tonkou" brass work looks vaguely like it could have been made in Western China/Eastern Tibet. It reminds me of Yi swords. When you look closely at the lamination, does it have a "Tibetan" feel to it even if it is not hairpin?

[Miguel]

This is a fascinating thread which until now I have missed
Miguel

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by josh stout

Thanks for the info Gavin! This is certainly a strange one. It certainly seems too well made and too solid to be anything other than a weapon, but I have seen laminated heat-treated scissors. The "tonkou" brass work looks vaguely like it could have been made in Western China/Eastern Tibet. It reminds me of Yi swords. When you look closely at the lamination, does it have a "Tibetan" feel to it even if it is not hairpin?

I am at a total loss with this one Josh, it could just as well be a "higher" end iron spatula that one had a large ring to the pommel end...one thing is for certain though, it is very well forged and very devastating in the the wrong hands.

Gavin

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

I am at a total loss with this one Josh, it could just as well be a "higher" end iron spatula that one had a large ring to the pommel end...one thing is for certain though, it is very well forged and very devastating in the the wrong hands.

Gavin

I would also say it is a weapon, based on what the fact that the Japanese and Chinese used a vast array of blunt force weapons, there afre bound to be some that are not well known, this could an example.