curved dagger with slots in the blade

blue lander · 23rd June 2014, 02:51 PM

Does anybody have any idea where this thing might have originated? I think the pommel came from a European military sabre, the hole in the mouth being for the knuckle bow. The recycled European bits and the curved blade makes me think it's North African.

Iain · 23rd June 2014, 03:26 PM

See: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...8&postcount=16 and go down a few posts as well.

Seems to be a combination of bits as you suspect.

blue lander · 23rd June 2014, 03:36 PM

There's definitely a family resemblance there, although none of those have the slits in the blade.

Here's another one with slits from an auction that finished a few weeks ago which I didn't win. Might be related. Perhaps mine used to look at that and at some point the hilt broke and was replaced by whatever they had laying around.

Iain · 23rd June 2014, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

There's definitely a family resemblance there, although none of those have the slits in the blade.

Here's another one with slits from an auction that finished a few weeks ago which I didn't win. Might be related. Perhaps mine used to look at that and at some point the hilt broke and was replaced by whatever they had laying around.

many do have the slits. I'll try to dig up a few when I have more time.

colin henshaw · 23rd June 2014, 05:31 PM

The blade with that slight dog leg profile, looks very like the Palestinian dagger "Shibriya"...

Iain · 23rd June 2014, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

The blade with that slight dog leg profile, looks very like the Palestinian dagger "Shibriya"...

Likely not coincidence that there is a relationship to Arab daggers since Maqil Arabs from Yemen settled and conquered Mauritania during 1644-75 or so.

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2014, 06:47 PM

I agree with Colin that blade sure does resemble the shabriya, and as Iain has well noted, the blocked ricasso looks remarkably North African, so reasonably modern within the Berber realm seems compelling.

Iain · 23rd June 2014, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I agree with Colin that blade sure does resemble the shabriya, and as Iain has well noted, the blocked ricasso looks remarkably North African, so reasonably modern within the Berber realm seems compelling.

Hi Jim, Mauritania is a majority Arabic speaking country these days, with less of a visible Berber culture from what I understand.

But I could well be missing many of the intricacies of the situation.

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2014, 08:11 PM

Thanks Iain, it seems this blade shape is not exactly the same as a good number of shabrya but it is of similar size and profile, and it is not much of a reach to imagine that in diffusion there was quite a range in variation.
These regions are historically volatile with constant change geopolitically and the fact that these types of edged weapons are commercially popular throughout well into the last century makes classification all the more difficult.
Mauretania as you note has probably less presence as far as the Berbers in todays times, but culturally and traditionally recalls its importance as Berber in ancient times. It is always hard to remember that despite geographic distances these regions have always been connected to Arabia through religion and trade. The pilgrimages regularly were part of the trade routes.

It seems these blocked ricassos and the geometric patterns are quite familiar among North African commerce across the Sahara and are often collectively grouped with Tuareg items, at least in much of the literature I've seen.

It does seem the industrious recycling of old components is at hand here as also noted.

blue lander · 8th July 2014, 03:09 PM

This guy just came in the mail today. Nothing too noteworthy about it other than it being a bit smaller than I expected. If the pommel came from a European sword, it must have been from some small ceremonial court sword. I've attached a picture of it next to a small sword pommel.

There's what appears to be a nail head at the tip of the pommel as well. This probably was where the sword tang would have been peened.

23rd June 2014, 02:51 PM	#1
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	curved dagger with slots in the blade Does anybody have any idea where this thing might have originated? I think the pommel came from a European military sabre, the hole in the mouth being for the knuckle bow. The recycled European bits and the curved blade makes me think it's North African. Attached Images

23rd June 2014, 03:36 PM	#3
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	There's definitely a family resemblance there, although none of those have the slits in the blade. Here's another one with slits from an auction that finished a few weeks ago which I didn't win. Might be related. Perhaps mine used to look at that and at some point the hilt broke and was replaced by whatever they had laying around. Attached Images

8th July 2014, 03:09 PM	#10
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	This guy just came in the mail today. Nothing too noteworthy about it other than it being a bit smaller than I expected. If the pommel came from a European sword, it must have been from some small ceremonial court sword. I've attached a picture of it next to a small sword pommel. There's what appears to be a nail head at the tip of the pommel as well. This probably was where the sword tang would have been peened. Attached Images

23rd June 2014, 03:26 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	See: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...8&postcount=16 and go down a few posts as well. Seems to be a combination of bits as you suspect.

23rd June 2014, 05:31 PM	#5
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	The blade with that slight dog leg profile, looks very like the Palestinian dagger "Shibriya"...

23rd June 2014, 06:47 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	I agree with Colin that blade sure does resemble the shabriya, and as Iain has well noted, the blocked ricasso looks remarkably North African, so reasonably modern within the Berber realm seems compelling.

23rd June 2014, 08:11 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thanks Iain, it seems this blade shape is not exactly the same as a good number of shabrya but it is of similar size and profile, and it is not much of a reach to imagine that in diffusion there was quite a range in variation. These regions are historically volatile with constant change geopolitically and the fact that these types of edged weapons are commercially popular throughout well into the last century makes classification all the more difficult. Mauretania as you note has probably less presence as far as the Berbers in todays times, but culturally and traditionally recalls its importance as Berber in ancient times. It is always hard to remember that despite geographic distances these regions have always been connected to Arabia through religion and trade. The pilgrimages regularly were part of the trade routes. It seems these blocked ricassos and the geometric patterns are quite familiar among North African commerce across the Sahara and are often collectively grouped with Tuareg items, at least in much of the literature I've seen. It does seem the industrious recycling of old components is at hand here as also noted.