Looking for a rapier identical to this one.

[Dmitry]

I have recently purchased this nice rapier with a swept-hilt, which I'd date to the tail-end of the 16th - very early 17th c. Being that the hilt is of rather simple, sturdy, un-embellished architecture, I am thinking there maybe others out there. Straight-forward weapons like this were used by a nobleman's entourage, but not by a nobleman himself, due to the lack of decorations on the hilt. Perhaps a servant's or body-guard's weapon, or a dueling sword.
Blade is 104 cm. long, marked Sahagum on both sides, and was probably of Solingen manufacture. Rapier is a little bit on the heavy side, weighing in at 2.5 lbs., but not too heavy. It feels just right, and is nicely-balanced.

[VANDERNOTTE]

i look for years to have one like this ..some people are luky
congratulation
jacques

[fernando]

Very nice and functional sword. If (remotely) not made in Toledo, it surely has all the Toledo appeal.
Here is a rapier by Gonzalo Simon, from the same period, only partly similar to yours, just to fill the gap until one with a closer resemblance pops up.
This one has 118 cms and weighs 1.120 grams.

.

[Dmitry]

Yes, same time-frame, your might be 25-30 years younger than mine. Both are unassuming, working swords. Very good.

[M ELEY]

Very nice weapons, gentlemen. Congrats on owning two 'true' fighters.

[fernando]

Thanks Mark
Never know if these two met some time, somewhere.
I ignore where Dmitry acquired his example from, but mine, made in Toledo, 'emigrated' i wouldn't know when to America and was brought from somewhere in the USA to Portugal by a guy who eventualy sold it to me. Quite a boomerang effect, considering Toledo is some 400 miles from here.

[Dmitry]

Mine came from England. Could've been there for the last few hundred years, could've been from somewhere else. Rust doesn't know boundaries, and there was a lot of it.
This was the first time I used aluminum foil to clean it off, like someone suggested here. It was a good call! It's a lot cheaper than brass wool, works faster, and didn't seem to leave any scratches. It does stink when you rub it on steel, though.

[fernando]

I was lucky ... mine was clean as it is in the present pictures.
Aluminum foil ... i'll be damned; the same you use for wrapping sandwiches ?
How does it work ... folded in layers or making it a ball ?

[Dmitry]

First I generously oiled the sword, let it sit overnight, so the oil could penetrate, then ripped a small sheet of cooking aluminum foil, and scrubbed with it, wiping the dark sludge off, and oiling again. You can fashion it any way you want, layers, ball, glob, etc. Small pieces of foil will come off and get stuck in recesses, I just blow them off, or brush them off. When your glob starts to fall apart, toss it and rip a new one. A very inexpensive material. It stinks when you rub hard, though. Works great, as you can see, in many ways better than the bronze wool.

[fernando]

Спасибо большое

[kronckew]

question: how sharp would a rapier edge have been during their heyday? or would the be left dull, as the point was the more important?

[fernando]

Tricky question ... as the concept of rapier is a bit discussable.
... Chris Evans would better guide you into that universe .
Speaking of a "true" rapier the blade would be completely dull.
I have once seen a rapier blade, which blade was a highly tense diamond section dull "iron". I believe even their points don't have to be very sharp, due to their thrusting abilities.
Swords like the ones posted here are rapiers of second generation, to put it that way; their blades being more or less sharp like many other swords; not razor sharp ... simply sharp.
I guess this evolution was mostly based on the fact that original rapiers were destined for restricted purposes, to be used by previleged classes, either in fencing schools or, when in street fights, obliging for both opponents to be school trained.
... Whereas later ones could be effective in the hands of the common man, something more realistic as, when the moment comes, fighting is how you manage do it and not by following demanding manuals.
I hope all this makes some sense

[kronckew]

i had an ulterior motive for asking.

as this is the EU, this czech was free to immigrate to gloucestershire. she even brought her clothing. needle pointy with the schwech (foible - 1st third back from the point) mildly sharpened but won't cut paper, the rest is as sharp as a butter knife.

[fernando]

Is this original ?

[kronckew]

i cannot tell a lie. she IS 'original', but she is very young she was only born last week after a 5 week gestation period. took her a week to travel here from prague. she arrived yesterday. she and her clothes were custom made to my measurements. we seemed to have slightly different opinions on what 'sharp' means tho. ah, well. i've got some nice diamond stones.

more kiddy porn:




i told him i was after historical accuracy, as much as possible anyway. he seems to have done a good job. i was after a 'user' rather than a noble's fashion accessory.

p.s. - he makes ones much like yours as well

[Chris Evans]

Fernando: Thanks for the cue

kronckew

Originally Posted by kronckew

question: how sharp would a rapier edge have been during their heyday? or would the be left dull, as the point was the more important?

I don't think that we can do any better than guess because if we see an unusually sharp antique rapier we would not know when it was so sharpened, and here we have to remember that even the end of the rapier era was over 300yrs ago, so a lot could have have been done to a sword in that time. And the bulk of the swords in collections are quite dull, but this may be no more than the work of the centuries

But given that rapier blades had little percussive effect, if they were expected to do any real cutting, they better be very sharp. I think that dueling sabres and schlagers offer us a decent clue because they fairly well replicate a slender bladed rapier, and these were kept extremely sharp.

Cheers
Chris
PS Nice replica rapier. How long is its blade?

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...
PS Nice replica rapier. How long is its blade?

blade is 96 cm. measured from the forwardmost guard ring. grip adds another 30 cm. from there to the end of the pommel (excluding the peening). blade is 22 mm. wide at the maker's mark. weighs 1.15 kilos.

it's just long enough so i can actually pull it from the scabbard while wearing the belt/hanger. more importantly, i can also then put it back in.

ah, well back to the same old grind (). i don't intend to cut any targets, but i would like to have it in operational condition.

[Chris Evans]

Kronckew

Originally Posted by kronckew

ah, well back to the same old grind (). i don't intend to cut any targets, but i would like to have it in operational condition.

Just looking at the photo, it appears to me that the cross sectional geometry of the blade does not lend itself to any significant cutting, because the four facets of the blade would make for rather steep bevels. In such instances, the only real effect of sharpening is to facilitate penetration and discourage the seizure of the blade with a hand by an opponent.

But there's nothing to prevent one from "thinning" out the tip area of the blade so as to be able to apply tip cuts.

Cheers
Chris

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Mine came from England. Could've been there for the last few hundred years, could've been from somewhere else. Rust doesn't know boundaries, and there was a lot of it.
This was the first time I used aluminum foil to clean it off, like someone suggested here. It was a good call! It's a lot cheaper than brass wool, works faster, and didn't seem to leave any scratches. It does stink when you rub it on steel, though.

Salaams Dmitry: I do believe that was me... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hop+techniques see #48

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... p.s. - he makes ones much like yours as well

Thanks for the heads up Wayne, but i only pick real antique stuff ... with seppuku prices -
No practicing; only exhibiting them ... to myself .

[kronckew]

i like looking at old ones too.

i also like being able to poke holes in melons and milk jugs and slice them into paper thin slices with well made historical reproductions that i can stress without worry; and i can try stuff with them i would never try with one of my actual antiques. knowing how they handle is half the fun.

why get any modern 'tactical' sharp pointy things when the old styles are battle tested. they are also cheaper tho frequently more utilitarian and not up to the same level of craftsmanship and finesse. i also like to keep these traditional smithies funded to keep the skills alive as much as possible.

i recall seeing the sutton hoo horde with the relic weapons displayed with the reconstructed replicas. much more informative.

[Dmitry]

Just curious...why did you choose to buy a rapier that doesn't resemble a historical weapon, but is a "fantasy piece"?

[kronckew]

fantasy? it's not quite a klingon bat'leth or a hibben stainless steel construct.

i saw 'real' ones that were close enough to this one.

i could have had a more historical replica i guess, but the intent was not to have a passable 100% accurate fake copy of an existing period piece, but one close enough that still worked. the maker may have used a bit of artistic license. it is after all an interpretation in a 21st c. sword, not a 16th c one. at least it is hand made, forged and ground rather than a mass produced machine made one stamped out of sheet metal with plastic parts.

ultimately i chose that model because i liked it better than the others. the same as my greyhounds, who were chosen not because they were the best of breed, or the fastest racers or the best hunters, they were just good dogs and we suited each other. i enjoyed them in spite of people shouting at me that they were too skinny, or looked more like deer, or lost someone money when the had bet on them in a race. or even the ones that insisted they weren't real greyhounds. they were.

all-in-all, aren't all 'rapiers' a 'fantasy' weapon? what is a 'rapier'? this seems to be a broad made-up term for a broad class of long skinny bladed thrusting weapons with fanciful elaborate (or not so elaborate) guards, most of which were never called or considered 'rapiers' by their owners.

[Dmitry]

Fair enough. Just wanted to know your m.o.

Originally Posted by kronckew

what is a 'rapier'? this seems to be a broad made-up term for a broad class of long skinny bladed thrusting weapons with fanciful elaborate (or not so elaborate) guards, most of which were never called or considered 'rapiers' by their owners.

Well, a rapier in my interpretation is a thrusting sword with a straight blade of at least 90 cm., a hilt that offers more protection for a palm than a simple guard, and with a ricasso. I'm sure others' versions will vary.

[kronckew]

good. mine seems to fit the definition then. thanks.


as i don't want the current off topic discussion to detract from your original post, i've asked fernando via PM to move the discussion to a separate thread.

regards,

wayne

p.s. - i wound a bit of flat maroon 'shoelace' around the square section ricasso between the 1st ring guard and the crossbar to make it a bit more comfortable. probably should have used leather but don't have the leather. i can however 'macrame'.

i started learning the foil on an italian grip foil, so i'm used to putting my fingers over the crossbar and around the ricasso. i carried that over to the epee when in university where i was our epee team captain. it was impossible at that time to find a competition epee (electric) with an italian grip however. i probably could have tracked one down if i had the money to do it, but i was not a wealthy student.

i also have a pair of brown leather fencing gloves to match the harness that need a bit of breaking in.

[fernando]

I am sorry Wayne
You might have not noticed that presently i am not acting as a a moderator.
On the other hand, i don't think the ongoing conversation has lost its flavor and there are no strong reasons to split the thread.
We are all sportsmen here and i am sure Dmitry agrees with this.
Ah, by the way: none of my five cats has a pedigree ... but they are all cats alright

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

I am sorry Wayne
You might have not noticed that presently i am not acting as a a moderator.
On the other hand, i don't think the ongoing conversation has lost its flavor and there are no strong reasons to split the thread.
We are all sportsmen here and i am sure Dmitry agrees with this.
Ah, by the way: none of my five cats has a pedigree ... but they are all cats alright

OK. hadn't noticed you'd stepped down. i'll babel on then.

my dogs were not AKC registered greyhounds either (Millie was an NGC registered racer and quite a good one, tho not a top champion - she did win 2/3 of her races tho & made her racing owners a fortune) the akc people tend to look down on ngc people and their dogs for not conforming to their breed standard & did not allow ngc dogs to be akc registered until recently, when an ngc dog was allowed grudgingly in, and went on to win best in breed! ngc dogs tend to be smaller and much more muscular.

my male, Blue, i entered in a local dog show. the owner of three AKC greyhounds also entered in the show was quite condescending when i walked blue by him.

result:



Blue won the blue ribbon for best dog. the AKC ones didn't get anything.
(he did have a tail, it's wagged behind him on his left side )

as they've passed over, millie went this easter, i'm looking for a replacement, have seen a nice abandoned spanish galgo on a spanish rescue site i might sponsor for a trip to sunny england. he's not registered either, but also a greyhound.

a gratuitous Millie photo:

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by kronckew

p.s. - i wound a bit of flat maroon 'shoelace' around the square section ricasso between the 1st ring guard and the crossbar to make it a bit more comfortable. probably should have used leather but don't have the leather. i can however 'macrame'.

You can get an old leather glove, cut off one of the fingers, and stitch it over the back of the ricasso. If I was playing with it, I'd also get some braided wire and put it in the recesses on the grip, drill small holes where they terminate, and secure the ends with tooth-picks. The hilt can be cold-blued on the cheap. That should go over well with the ladies.

[kronckew]

sounds good. it'll keep me busy and out of trouble anyway!

[Jim McDougall]

I dont have much to add, but just wanted to say this is an outstanding example of perfectly gentlemanly discussion, which even though has wandered a little from the topic, is informative and comfortable reading.
Even though the extremely nicely made rapier Wayne presented is clearly a modern reproduction, it was shown in good faith and I like the way no defensiveness developed by any parties in responses.

I admit I have often been dismayed and frustrated many times over such wanderings on threads as I have always been intent on historical focus, but you guys remind me that we are just guys talking on common interests here. Actually thats kinda nice and we still learn a lot together, even if a wander or ramble here and there happens,.

Thanks guys,
Jim