Iraq Dagger

Aurangzeb · 1st October 2005, 04:51 AM

Hello All!

I just bought this off Therion-Arms, although it is described as berber I think it is Iraqi it looks similer to Marsh arab daggers. Comments are welcome!

Mark...

http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/...arms_c731.html

Tim Simmons · 1st October 2005, 10:32 AM

Hello Mark, it has got that look but could also be from many other places like the horn of Africa, Yemin and so on. Nice shapes, is the handle brass? Looks like a good quality blade. Nice!

Tim

Aurangzeb · 1st October 2005, 05:48 PM

Hello Tim!

Yes the handle is brass, and apperars to be good quality.

Mark...

TVV · 1st October 2005, 08:31 PM

Aurangzeb, the question about the origin of this type of daggers is one whose answer I would also like to know, and I will surely be visiting this thread often. You are quite right that the shape of the blade is indeed quite similar to the shape of the blades on Marsh Arab daggers, yet Hal from Therion also has a strong point about North Africa due to the brass work and the decoration motives on the hilt. One of the many great things about this forum is that newbies such as us could hope to find answers to questions about the origin of weapons such as this one, and I am sure someone here will know with certainty where this particular dagger came from. All I know is that I have seen at least several other examples from this type, so it must be a type of its own.
Wherever it turns out to be from, congratulations on a nice dagger that has the specific charm of old plain weapons, which may lack in decoration but were meant for serious use.
Regards,
Teodor

Tim Simmons · 1st October 2005, 09:11 PM

Looking again and I think you are right that it is not Berber but I do not think that it is marsh Arab though I can see why you might think so. I have a couple in the attic which I shall get down and post tomorrow. I question Berber and marsh Arab origin because the curved blade is made with an angle rather than a sweeping curve. This is seen most commonly in the horn of Africa a vast region and the Yemen. Personally I would say it was from the countries that make up the horn rather than Yemen. Tim

Aurangzeb · 2nd October 2005, 05:49 AM

Hello Tim!

I have never seen any curved daggers from the horn, this will be my first. I thought it was just a very crude Iraqi dagger.

Mark...

Tim Simmons · 2nd October 2005, 08:43 AM

I do not know for sure, it is just a feeling. The decoration just does not strick me as Arab. Tim

Aurangzeb · 2nd October 2005, 04:34 PM

Hello Tim!

You do have a point about the 'X' symbols on the handle but I have seen geometric paterns on arab/mid-eastern weapons before. The end of the handle reminds me of the end on the daggers of south Iraq, only cruder than normal. I have posted a link to a dagger that used to be on Oriental arms that shows some resmblence to the blade shape on the one I just bought.

Mark...

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=184

Aurangzeb · 5th October 2005, 01:20 AM

Does this mean that nobody knows for sure where this mystery dagger came from?

Justin · 5th October 2005, 02:49 PM

Personally I have seen a few of these over the last year or so and I had assumed that they were shibriya variants,I have a shibriya in my collection that has a blade with the same curve instead of a recurve.

Aurangzeb · 5th October 2005, 05:26 PM

Hello Justin!

Interesting, I never even thought of a shabriya varient but now that you mention it the hilt does look like one.

Mark...

Justin · 6th October 2005, 12:09 AM

Ill see if I can get pics of my single curve shibriya up for comparison.

Aurangzeb · 6th October 2005, 03:18 AM

Thankyou Justin that whould be much appreciated!

Aurangzeb · 7th October 2005, 07:10 PM

Just a thought maybe it is african perhaps Libya for it shows both african and middle eastern influences, I am probably wrong. I got it today and it has both a Iraqi and North African feel to it, odd? Maybe Artzi whould know?

Mark...

Justin · 9th October 2005, 02:36 PM

Im also looking forward to what Artzi would have to say about these,they dont seem to make knives in that part of the world that he doesnt know about.

As promised heres the shibria that has the single curved blade:

Aurangzeb · 9th October 2005, 09:22 PM

Hello Justin!

It does look similer to the single curve one the system of attaching the hilt with metal pegs is very similer. And the use of geometric patterns on the sheath of your single curve. Heres hoping that Artzi will notice this thread. This dagger is a mystery jambiya or varient, can't seem to get it even pinned down to a continent, so far there is Iraq, Berber, horn of africa, Yemen , Libya, and shabriya varient. Confusing

Thanks for the pictures its helping.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 10th October 2005, 05:07 AM

Hello All!

I just thought that I whould Clairify my earlier post about it might being libyan. The use of brass and ''X'' shapes on the hilt seems african but the shape of the blade seems arab, sice Libya was a tradeing hub I thoght it might be from there because it combines influieneces from both places. Just a thought. Iraq is my first guess but Libya is my second. Any comments on my new yheory is welcome!

Mark...

Justin · 10th October 2005, 01:33 PM

I think North Africa is definately a possibility,they had a lot of 'Arab' influence especially in their weapons,but I still like my Shibriya theory

.

Aurangzeb · 10th October 2005, 05:51 PM

Hello Justin !

I like the shabriya theroy to, it places it closer to Iraq.

Aurangzeb · 11th October 2005, 10:59 PM

I just noticed that the pommel looks a little like the type on a tebu dagger.

Aurangzeb · 12th October 2005, 10:48 PM

Now looking at it more closly it does appear to be a shabriya relative, perhaps this typ of shabriya comes from Iraq, is brass used on shabriya hilts?
Just a thought. This dagger is a mystery wrapped in an inigma!

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 13th October 2005, 10:47 PM

Hello All!

I was looking through some of the old Ebay links I saved into my computer and found one for a recurving shabriya with the same trianguler pommel and small metal ring like on mine, unfortunetly I forgot the link r elese I whould have posted it and with well over a hundred Ebay saves in my computer finding it wilkl be great amounts of trouble. Now that it is a shabriya that at least puts it on a continent and geograpical region, now to pin it to a country. Any guesses?

Mark...

Justin · 14th October 2005, 01:01 AM

Cant help with pinning it to a country but,I have also seen the triangular pommel and the little pommel ring on shibriyas before,and yes they did use brass on them.I have a small and fairly new one that is covered{sheath and hilt} with sheet brass,not brass scales like this one though.....

Aurangzeb · 17th October 2005, 10:52 PM

Perhaps it is from Jordan.

Aurangzeb · 30th October 2005, 10:30 PM

I guess this daggers origen will remain a mystery?

The use of brass and 'X' shapes still seems african. Perhaps Mali, a dagger made by locals in imatation of the arab jambiya/shbariya. HELP!

Hal Siegel · 31st October 2005, 03:02 AM

Howdy folks, and thanks, Mark - I'm glad you like the dagger even though it's giving you headaches!

Here's a picture of the dagger in question:

My original (and current) estimation is northern African somewhere ... the Berber guesstimate was Tom Hyle's thoughts on the origin.

I don't think it's a shabriya variation, the blade shape is really quite jambaic, and even the most extremely curved of the sabriya (nice collection!) doesn't really come close to being the same.

As to Iraq and Marsh Arab - also, I think not. Their hilts are sort of triangularish as shown in Mark's new whatsit, but the Marsh daggers really have a more dart/arrowhead shape to them rather than the clearly defined triangle.

Here's a Marsh dagger shown along with a modern stainless-steel bladed repro:

The blade curve/shape of the Marsh jambiya is quite similar to the blade on Mark's Mystery, but I think the pommel shape rules out Iraq in specific - although now that I look at all of these pictures together I'm certainly willing to narrow down my estimation of "nothern Africa" to eastern northern Africa (ish!)

Aurangzeb · 31st October 2005, 04:14 AM

I think in the end it will be a glorious accomplishment to pin it ot a country.

In my opinion the fact it has a crude feel to it as opposed to other nort african daggers which seem refined, and seems to be a crude imatation of arab jambiya's with some saharan-african influences like in Mali or Mauritania. One of the reasons I say Mali is the fact that Mali had strong arab ties during it's history but seems to use brass on a lot of there weapons.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 31st October 2005, 10:05 PM

Heres a link I foumd. Look at the dagger from mali half way down the page the desighns on the hilt are idententical, three lines then a "X".

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=west+africa

Mark...

TVV · 31st October 2005, 11:04 PM

Wrong thread, please delete.

Aurangzeb · 1st November 2005, 01:06 AM

You must have missed it it's far down on the page.

1st October 2005, 04:51 AM	#1
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Iraq Dagger Hello All! I just bought this off Therion-Arms, although it is described as berber I think it is Iraqi it looks similer to Marsh arab daggers. Comments are welcome! Mark... http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/...arms_c731.html

1st October 2005, 09:11 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Looking again and I think you are right that it is not Berber but I do not think that it is marsh Arab though I can see why you might think so. I have a couple in the attic which I shall get down and post tomorrow. I question Berber and marsh Arab origin because the curved blade is made with an angle rather than a sweeping curve. This is seen most commonly in the horn of Africa a vast region and the Yemen. Personally I would say it was from the countries that make up the horn rather than Yemen. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 1st October 2005 at 09:22 PM.

7th October 2005, 07:10 PM	#14
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Just a thought maybe it is african perhaps Libya for it shows both african and middle eastern influences, I am probably wrong. I got it today and it has both a Iraqi and North African feel to it, odd? Maybe Artzi whould know? Mark... Last edited by Aurangzeb; 8th October 2005 at 12:16 AM.

9th October 2005, 02:36 PM	#15
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Im also looking forward to what Artzi would have to say about these,they dont seem to make knives in that part of the world that he doesnt know about. As promised heres the shibria that has the single curved blade: Attached Images

9th October 2005, 09:22 PM	#16
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Justin! It does look similer to the single curve one the system of attaching the hilt with metal pegs is very similer. And the use of geometric patterns on the sheath of your single curve. Heres hoping that Artzi will notice this thread. This dagger is a mystery jambiya or varient, can't seem to get it even pinned down to a continent, so far there is Iraq, Berber, horn of africa, Yemen , Libya, and shabriya varient. Confusing Thanks for the pictures its helping. Mark... Last edited by Aurangzeb; 10th October 2005 at 05:04 AM.

1st October 2005, 10:32 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hello Mark, it has got that look but could also be from many other places like the horn of Africa, Yemin and so on. Nice shapes, is the handle brass? Looks like a good quality blade. Nice! Tim

1st October 2005, 05:48 PM	#3
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Tim! Yes the handle is brass, and apperars to be good quality. Mark...

1st October 2005, 08:31 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Aurangzeb, the question about the origin of this type of daggers is one whose answer I would also like to know, and I will surely be visiting this thread often. You are quite right that the shape of the blade is indeed quite similar to the shape of the blades on Marsh Arab daggers, yet Hal from Therion also has a strong point about North Africa due to the brass work and the decoration motives on the hilt. One of the many great things about this forum is that newbies such as us could hope to find answers to questions about the origin of weapons such as this one, and I am sure someone here will know with certainty where this particular dagger came from. All I know is that I have seen at least several other examples from this type, so it must be a type of its own. Wherever it turns out to be from, congratulations on a nice dagger that has the specific charm of old plain weapons, which may lack in decoration but were meant for serious use. Regards, Teodor

2nd October 2005, 05:49 AM	#6
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Tim! I have never seen any curved daggers from the horn, this will be my first. I thought it was just a very crude Iraqi dagger. Mark...

2nd October 2005, 08:43 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I do not know for sure, it is just a feeling. The decoration just does not strick me as Arab. Tim

2nd October 2005, 04:34 PM	#8
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Tim! You do have a point about the 'X' symbols on the handle but I have seen geometric paterns on arab/mid-eastern weapons before. The end of the handle reminds me of the end on the daggers of south Iraq, only cruder than normal. I have posted a link to a dagger that used to be on Oriental arms that shows some resmblence to the blade shape on the one I just bought. Mark... http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=184

5th October 2005, 01:20 AM	#9
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Does this mean that nobody knows for sure where this mystery dagger came from?

5th October 2005, 02:49 PM	#10
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Personally I have seen a few of these over the last year or so and I had assumed that they were shibriya variants,I have a shibriya in my collection that has a blade with the same curve instead of a recurve.

5th October 2005, 05:26 PM	#11
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Justin! Interesting, I never even thought of a shabriya varient but now that you mention it the hilt does look like one. Mark...

6th October 2005, 12:09 AM	#12
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Ill see if I can get pics of my single curve shibriya up for comparison.

6th October 2005, 03:18 AM	#13
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Thankyou Justin that whould be much appreciated!

10th October 2005, 05:07 AM	#17
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello All! I just thought that I whould Clairify my earlier post about it might being libyan. The use of brass and ''X'' shapes on the hilt seems african but the shape of the blade seems arab, sice Libya was a tradeing hub I thoght it might be from there because it combines influieneces from both places. Just a thought. Iraq is my first guess but Libya is my second. Any comments on my new yheory is welcome! Mark...

10th October 2005, 01:33 PM	#18
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	I think North Africa is definately a possibility,they had a lot of 'Arab' influence especially in their weapons,but I still like my Shibriya theory .

10th October 2005, 05:51 PM	#19
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Justin ! I like the shabriya theroy to, it places it closer to Iraq.

11th October 2005, 10:59 PM	#20
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	I just noticed that the pommel looks a little like the type on a tebu dagger.

12th October 2005, 10:48 PM	#21
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Now looking at it more closly it does appear to be a shabriya relative, perhaps this typ of shabriya comes from Iraq, is brass used on shabriya hilts? Just a thought. This dagger is a mystery wrapped in an inigma! Mark...

13th October 2005, 10:47 PM	#22
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	!Brake Though! Hello All! I was looking through some of the old Ebay links I saved into my computer and found one for a recurving shabriya with the same trianguler pommel and small metal ring like on mine, unfortunetly I forgot the link r elese I whould have posted it and with well over a hundred Ebay saves in my computer finding it wilkl be great amounts of trouble. Now that it is a shabriya that at least puts it on a continent and geograpical region, now to pin it to a country. Any guesses? Mark...

14th October 2005, 01:01 AM	#23
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Cant help with pinning it to a country but,I have also seen the triangular pommel and the little pommel ring on shibriyas before,and yes they did use brass on them.I have a small and fairly new one that is covered{sheath and hilt} with sheet brass,not brass scales like this one though.....

17th October 2005, 10:52 PM	#24
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Perhaps it is from Jordan.

30th October 2005, 10:30 PM	#25
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	I guess this daggers origen will remain a mystery? The use of brass and 'X' shapes still seems african. Perhaps Mali, a dagger made by locals in imatation of the arab jambiya/shbariya. HELP!

31st October 2005, 03:02 AM	#26
Hal Siegel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 15	Howdy folks, and thanks, Mark - I'm glad you like the dagger even though it's giving you headaches! Here's a picture of the dagger in question: My original (and current) estimation is northern African somewhere ... the Berber guesstimate was Tom Hyle's thoughts on the origin. I don't think it's a shabriya variation, the blade shape is really quite jambaic, and even the most extremely curved of the sabriya (nice collection!) doesn't really come close to being the same. As to Iraq and Marsh Arab - also, I think not. Their hilts are sort of triangularish as shown in Mark's new whatsit, but the Marsh daggers really have a more dart/arrowhead shape to them rather than the clearly defined triangle. Here's a Marsh dagger shown along with a modern stainless-steel bladed repro: The blade curve/shape of the Marsh jambiya is quite similar to the blade on Mark's Mystery, but I think the pommel shape rules out Iraq in specific - although now that I look at all of these pictures together I'm certainly willing to narrow down my estimation of "nothern Africa" to eastern northern Africa (ish!)

31st October 2005, 04:14 AM	#27
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	I think in the end it will be a glorious accomplishment to pin it ot a country. In my opinion the fact it has a crude feel to it as opposed to other nort african daggers which seem refined, and seems to be a crude imatation of arab jambiya's with some saharan-african influences like in Mali or Mauritania. One of the reasons I say Mali is the fact that Mali had strong arab ties during it's history but seems to use brass on a lot of there weapons. Mark...

31st October 2005, 10:05 PM	#28
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Heres a link I foumd. Look at the dagger from mali half way down the page the desighns on the hilt are idententical, three lines then a "X". http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=west+africa Mark...

31st October 2005, 11:04 PM	#29
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Wrong thread, please delete. Last edited by TVV; 1st November 2005 at 12:21 AM.

1st November 2005, 01:06 AM	#30
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	You must have missed it it's far down on the page.