kris for comment

VANDERNOTTE · 23rd October 2012, 01:03 AM

I hope is the right place for put the only keris of my collections on the table
tank for your comments in advance
bonsoir a tous
jacques

David · 23rd October 2012, 03:07 AM

Hey Jacques. I thought for a moment that is might indeed be the wrong place to post this when i read your title. We generally differentiate Indonesian keris (which have their own forum) from Moro kris though a difference in spelling. While i am not sure calling a Moro kris by the spelling keris is "academically" incorrect, i think you might be able to see that separating the two through spelling can help make discussion less confusing. If you don't mind i am going to change the spelling in your title to kris so that other members that are interested in Moro kris will see immediately that this is a thread to check in on.

VANDERNOTTE · 23rd October 2012, 03:19 AM

tank very much for that and for the lesson,I try to learn more about
regard
jacques

VANDOO · 23rd October 2012, 03:35 AM

A VERY NICE MORO KRIS, I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE WITH SO MUCH MOTHER OF PEARL SHELL. IT IS VERY ATTRACTIVE, THE BLADE IS A NICE WATERED STEEL PATTERENED ONE. THIS KRIS IS MOST LIKELY FROM MINDINAO ISLAND NOT SURE OF WHICH MORO GROUP MADE IT. I LIKE IT WHO EVER HAD IT MADE IT MADE IT FOR SHOW AND IT SURE IS AN EYE CATCHER.

David · 23rd October 2012, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A VERY NICE MORO KRIS, I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE WITH SO MUCH MOTHER OF PEARL SHELL. IT IS VERY ATTRACTIVE, THE BLADE IS A NICE WATERED STEEL PATTERENED ONE. THIS KRIS IS MOST LIKELY FROM MINDINAO ISLAND NOT SURE OF WHICH MORO GROUP MADE IT. I LIKE IT WHO EVER HAD IT MADE IT MADE IT FOR SHOW AND IT SURE IS AN EYE CATCHER.

Barry, do you think it is possible that the dress was made at a later date. This type of mother of pearl dress didn't come about until around WWII AFAIK and this blade looks a bit older than that. Also this hilt seems to be on backwards.So while the dress seems to have been made for "show" the blade may well have been made for "business".

Battara · 23rd October 2012, 04:37 AM

I agree David, the blade is earlier than the rest. MOP was actually used before WWII, but not earlier than the turn of the 20c. However, so much MOP is a later use. I there also agree that is maybe circa WWII MOP fittings.

Also the front of the ganga is Sulu type and the blade has a little Indonesian style to it. Still I would say Sulu region as the place of origin.

Indianajones · 24th October 2012, 11:54 AM

Hello Jacques, very nice Moro kris indeed! My first impression was also, wow so much mother of pearl! Though wanted to add that -as Barry noticed very sharply the MOP on the scabbard may be later- I think the engraved MOP pieces on the top and bottom of the scabbard are probably older as they look more yellowish from handling.

Usually the middle section -now covered with the MOP mozaïk- is wounded with fine rattanstring which brakes easily when old n dried out.

I do feel its all authentically done (no restauration by a dealer or collector) at a later stadium, although they dont have the two dots of the wood pegs to attach them as the pieces on the handle. The long pieces on the handle are also attached at a this later stadium as when handling these pieces would also acquire a much yellower patine from handling.

However as this may sound a bit negative, I believe its not so bad as who wouldnt want to own this magnificent piece! The blade has a very powerfull presence! And its a wonder almost all MOPpiecses are still there.

On style and origins, I would myself not ascribe it to Sulu but more to the mainland of Mindanao >Maranao?< as the handle (geometrically) resembles a horsefoot and Sulu-pieces tend to have more the gracious cockatoo type of handle.

Enjoy the piece n regards, Indiana

CharlesS · 24th October 2012, 12:19 PM

Not sure if anyone has mentioned that the blade is on the hilt backwards, and needs to be reset.

David · 24th October 2012, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Not sure if anyone has mentioned that the blade is on the hilt backwards, and needs to be reset.

Yes Charles, i did indeed already note that, and since i am taking credit for my astute observations, it was also me, not Barry, that suggested the dress was newer than the blade.

Sajen · 24th October 2012, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

On style and origins, I would myself not ascribe it to Sulu but more to the mainland of Mindanao >Maranao?< as the handle (geometrically) resembles a horsefoot and Sulu-pieces tend to have more the gracious cockatoo type of handle.

Hello Wouter,

I think that Jose was relating to the blade when he stated the Sulu origin.

Regards,

Detlef

VANDERNOTTE · 24th October 2012, 06:55 PM

bonjour everybody
charles I don't anderstand what you mint about backward ..is the hilt turned
180 degree?
one more pic
regard

David · 24th October 2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

bonjour everybody
charles I don't anderstand what you mint about backward ..is the hilt turned
180 degree?
one more pic
regard

Not Charles, but yes, the proper orientation for your hilt a 180º turn. :-)

David · 24th October 2012, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Wouter,

I think that Jose was relating to the blade when he stated the Sulu origin.

Regards,

Detlef

I think he was as well. I would also suggest that we can be easily mislead by color (i.e. the yellowing of the MOP) in photographs, especially when they are taken by non-professionals who don't understand how to properly white balance or correct color in post production. Tungsten light, for instance, will cast a yellow hue on a photo that might not be there in reality. It also appears to me that some of the triangular pieces on the sheath stem appear just as yellow if not more than those pieces on the top sheath. I see nothing that particular points to this MOP work being done at different times.

VANDOO · 24th October 2012, 07:51 PM

THE ORIENTATION OF KRIS HANDLES COMES UP OFTEN. THIS EXAMPLE AS WELL AS OTHERS WAS LIKELY MOUNTED THAT WAY WHEN THE SCABBARD AND SHIETH WAS MADE. ( I THINK THIS BECAUSE WHOEVER DID ALL THE MOP SHELL WOULD LIKELY KNOW HOW IT SHOULD BE MOUNTED AND CERTIANLY WOULD NOT WANT TO HAVE TO REMOVE THE BLADE AND REMOUNT IT ESPECIALLY AS SOME MOP WOULD LIKELY COME OFF IN THE PROCESS.
WHEN MAKEING THE HOLE FOR THE TANG ON MANY IF NOT MOST THE TANG WILL ONLY FIT EASILY ONE WAY. UNLIKE THE JAPANESE SWORD COLLECTORS PHILIPPINE COLLECTORS SELDOM REMOVE HANDLES OFF MORO WEAPONS TO LOOK FOR A SIGNATURE SO MOST ARE LEFT AS THEY ARE.
IS IT POSSIBLE KREIS HANDLES ORIENTATED IN THIS BACKWARED WAY WERE FOR LEFT HANDED WARRIORS ?

THIS TYPE OF MOP WORK AND THE DESIGNS WAS WHAT I SAW A LOT OF IN ZAMBOANGA. THEY HAVE A BIG INDUSTRY USING MOP THERE AND DO VERY GOOD WORK IN THAT AREA LOTS OF MOP JEWELRY, BRACELETS ,NECKLACES, PINS ECT.

I AGREE THE BLADE IS LIKELY AN OLD ONE WITH A LATER REDO WITH MOP. IT SEEMS WHEN A WARRIOR HAS BEEN SUCESSFUL AND HAS PROSPERED WHEN HE TURNS THE BUSINESS OVER TO HIS SONS AND REITIRES HE DRESSES UP HIS KRIS AS A SYMBOL OF HIS SUCESS AND IT BECOMES A SORT OF PUSAKA (FAMILY HEIRLOOM). WALKING AROUND WITH A KERIS LIKE THIS ONE WOULD CATCH THE EYE AND SURELY SHOW YOU WERE SOMEONE SPECIAL IN THE VILLAGE.

kai · 24th October 2012, 08:08 PM

Hello Jacques,

I'm with Jose: blade is Sulu - looks fairly typical to me. Jose, could you please point out what feels Indonesian to you? I'd believe the blade to be from the "Span-Am war" period or even maybe a bit earlier like last quarter of 19th c.

Scabbard as well as hilt are distinctly Sulu and obviously a later restoration/replacement/addition (pre-WW2?). The MOP on the crosspiece, endpiece, and hilt are traditionally fastened with the pegs and most likely genuine (the very uncommon MOP grip would make this sword a status piece less suitable for fighting though).

The other, unusual MOP pieces are not traditionally fastened with pegs and I guess these could be post-WW2 additions to merely up the bling factor. Jacques, can you make out how these are attached?

The usual metal strips connecting the hilt to the asang-asang also appear to missing - maybe these got damaged/lost in a cleaning attempt and the hilt happened to be put on upside down afterwards? Heating the blade will help to get the hilt off; please take a pic of the hilt hole and the blade tang and post it - thanks!

Regards,
Kai

VANDERNOTTE · 25th October 2012, 12:19 AM

kai tanks for your time, imposible remouve the hilt fron the tang the wood
is too fragil over the mop
I learn a lot about kris
regard
jacques
(sorry for my ''anglais''

David · 25th October 2012, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

The usual metal strips connecting the hilt to the asang-asang also appear to missing - maybe these got damaged/lost in a cleaning attempt and the hilt happened to be put on upside down afterwards?

Might i suggest that these a sang-asang were never attached to this hilt. The position of the back one seems too far away and how would these be attached with the MOP anyway. Given the fragility of the MOP i can't imagine the attachment bands running up under the MOP. I believe these a sang-asang are leftover from the previous hilting as i do not believe this is the original hilt for this blade.

Battara · 25th October 2012, 02:45 AM

As I look at this again, I guess I was a little fooled by the asang-asang. They are truly done later than the blade. Their style and thinness sort of look Indonesian or Malay to me, if they were original and on a Malay or Indonesian sundang.

Indianajones · 29th October 2012, 11:00 AM

Jacques,
have a look at a pic Battara posted under the topic 'barong beauty'. The last pic he posted will show exactly your type of kris with the thin rattan lashing I meant (now gone and replaced by MOPshell) though with the engraved mop-shell pieces atop and bottom of the scabbard!

David · 29th October 2012, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Jacques,
have a look at a pic Battara posted under the topic 'barong beauty'. The last pic he posted will show exactly your type of kris with the thin rattan lashing I meant (now gone and replaced by MOPshell) though with the engraved mop-shell pieces atop and bottom of the scabbard!

Well, actually it shows a similar dress form. The blades on these two kris are quite different...

Indianajones · 29th October 2012, 05:25 PM

Okee, so the kris from Jacques and the kris from the pic would have a different place of origin David? I may know a bit but am far from an expert on this area. I understand the blade is Sulu so would also the whole kris be considered Sulu?
One can also notice the handle on the picture-kris is indeed in the opposite direction as the kris in question, as CharlesS noticed (first).

kai · 29th October 2012, 10:23 PM

Hello Wouter,

Quote:

I understand the blade is Sulu so would also the whole kris be considered Sulu?

IMHO both kris are Sulu: blades as well as their fittings; the blade in the pic above may be younger (WW2 period?) though. (Not possible to be certain from the limited resolution.)

Regards,
Kai

kai · 29th October 2012, 10:28 PM

Hello Jose,

Quote:

As I look at this again, I guess I was a little fooled by the asang-asang. They are truly done later than the blade. Their style and thinness sort of look Indonesian or Malay to me, if they were original and on a Malay or Indonesian sundang.

Yes, I forgot to comment on the asang-asang which appear to be later than the blade. It's well possible that these got replaced during on of the later restorations this kris apparently went through.

BTW, the other kris above also displays rather thin/slender asang-asang and may be from a similar period than our estimated replacement...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 29th October 2012, 10:41 PM

Hello David,

Sorry for being late to respond:

Quote:

Might i suggest that these asang-asang were never attached to this hilt. The position of the back one seems too far away

Once turned, I guess that the hilt will be much more evenly situated between those 2 asang-asang.

Quote:

and how would these be attached with the MOP anyway. Given the fragility of the MOP i can't imagine the attachment bands running up under the MOP. I believe these a sang-asang are leftover from the previous hilting as i do not believe this is the original hilt for this blade.

I'd like to see more close-ups of the base of the hilt, especially interesting would be details of a removed hilt (pics taken at an angle may suffice though).

If present, those metal straps could be fastened to the hilt with pins and any small ring-like ferrule or even a tiny band of rattan might be enough to stabilize them under stress despite the (weak and brittle) MOP. OTOH, I agree that this kris in its present incarnation wasn't intended to be a personal weapon but rather something to show off status.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 29th October 2012, 10:46 PM

You are welcome, Jacques!

Quote:

imposible remouve the hilt fron the tang the wood
is too fragil over the mop

By carefully (and possibly repeated) heating the blade, the hilt can surely be removed without any damage. Search this forum for several detailed descriptions how to proceed.

It certainly would be worth the effort if only to turn the hilt into the correct position!

Regards,
Kai

David · 29th October 2012, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Okee, so the kris from Jacques and the kris from the pic would have a different place of origin David?

I wasn't suggesting that at all Wouter. I was merely pointing out that these 2 kris are indeed very different in style, not "exactly" the same type and that only their dress was similar. The blade forms are completely different. Origin was not my subject of discussion here.

Battara · 29th October 2012, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, actually it shows a similar dress form. The blades on these two kris are quite different...

Yes this picture is from the 1960s........

23rd October 2012, 01:03 AM	#1
VANDERNOTTE Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 60	kris for comment I hope is the right place for put the only keris of my collections on the table tank for your comments in advance bonsoir a tous jacques Attached Images

23rd October 2012, 03:19 AM	#3
VANDERNOTTE Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 60	kris tank very much for that and for the lesson,I try to learn more about regard jacques

24th October 2012, 06:55 PM	#11
VANDERNOTTE Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 60	kris bonjour everybody charles I don't anderstand what you mint about backward ..is the hilt turned 180 degree? one more pic regard Attached Images

24th October 2012, 07:51 PM	#14
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE ORIENTATION OF KRIS HANDLES COMES UP OFTEN. THIS EXAMPLE AS WELL AS OTHERS WAS LIKELY MOUNTED THAT WAY WHEN THE SCABBARD AND SHIETH WAS MADE. ( I THINK THIS BECAUSE WHOEVER DID ALL THE MOP SHELL WOULD LIKELY KNOW HOW IT SHOULD BE MOUNTED AND CERTIANLY WOULD NOT WANT TO HAVE TO REMOVE THE BLADE AND REMOUNT IT ESPECIALLY AS SOME MOP WOULD LIKELY COME OFF IN THE PROCESS. WHEN MAKEING THE HOLE FOR THE TANG ON MANY IF NOT MOST THE TANG WILL ONLY FIT EASILY ONE WAY. UNLIKE THE JAPANESE SWORD COLLECTORS PHILIPPINE COLLECTORS SELDOM REMOVE HANDLES OFF MORO WEAPONS TO LOOK FOR A SIGNATURE SO MOST ARE LEFT AS THEY ARE. IS IT POSSIBLE KREIS HANDLES ORIENTATED IN THIS BACKWARED WAY WERE FOR LEFT HANDED WARRIORS ? THIS TYPE OF MOP WORK AND THE DESIGNS WAS WHAT I SAW A LOT OF IN ZAMBOANGA. THEY HAVE A BIG INDUSTRY USING MOP THERE AND DO VERY GOOD WORK IN THAT AREA LOTS OF MOP JEWELRY, BRACELETS ,NECKLACES, PINS ECT. I AGREE THE BLADE IS LIKELY AN OLD ONE WITH A LATER REDO WITH MOP. IT SEEMS WHEN A WARRIOR HAS BEEN SUCESSFUL AND HAS PROSPERED WHEN HE TURNS THE BUSINESS OVER TO HIS SONS AND REITIRES HE DRESSES UP HIS KRIS AS A SYMBOL OF HIS SUCESS AND IT BECOMES A SORT OF PUSAKA (FAMILY HEIRLOOM). WALKING AROUND WITH A KERIS LIKE THIS ONE WOULD CATCH THE EYE AND SURELY SHOW YOU WERE SOMEONE SPECIAL IN THE VILLAGE. Last edited by VANDOO; 24th October 2012 at 08:03 PM.

25th October 2012, 12:19 AM	#16
VANDERNOTTE Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 60	kris hilt kai tanks for your time, imposible remouve the hilt fron the tang the wood is too fragil over the mop I learn a lot about kris regard jacques (sorry for my ''anglais''

23rd October 2012, 03:07 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Hey Jacques. I thought for a moment that is might indeed be the wrong place to post this when i read your title. We generally differentiate Indonesian keris (which have their own forum) from Moro kris though a difference in spelling. While i am not sure calling a Moro kris by the spelling keris is "academically" incorrect, i think you might be able to see that separating the two through spelling can help make discussion less confusing. If you don't mind i am going to change the spelling in your title to kris so that other members that are interested in Moro kris will see immediately that this is a thread to check in on.

23rd October 2012, 03:35 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY NICE MORO KRIS, I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE WITH SO MUCH MOTHER OF PEARL SHELL. IT IS VERY ATTRACTIVE, THE BLADE IS A NICE WATERED STEEL PATTERENED ONE. THIS KRIS IS MOST LIKELY FROM MINDINAO ISLAND NOT SURE OF WHICH MORO GROUP MADE IT. I LIKE IT WHO EVER HAD IT MADE IT MADE IT FOR SHOW AND IT SURE IS AN EYE CATCHER.

23rd October 2012, 04:37 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I agree David, the blade is earlier than the rest. MOP was actually used before WWII, but not earlier than the turn of the 20c. However, so much MOP is a later use. I there also agree that is maybe circa WWII MOP fittings. Also the front of the ganga is Sulu type and the blade has a little Indonesian style to it. Still I would say Sulu region as the place of origin.

24th October 2012, 11:54 AM	#7
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hello Jacques, very nice Moro kris indeed! My first impression was also, wow so much mother of pearl! Though wanted to add that -as Barry noticed very sharply the MOP on the scabbard may be later- I think the engraved MOP pieces on the top and bottom of the scabbard are probably older as they look more yellowish from handling. Usually the middle section -now covered with the MOP mozaïk- is wounded with fine rattanstring which brakes easily when old n dried out. I do feel its all authentically done (no restauration by a dealer or collector) at a later stadium, although they dont have the two dots of the wood pegs to attach them as the pieces on the handle. The long pieces on the handle are also attached at a this later stadium as when handling these pieces would also acquire a much yellower patine from handling. However as this may sound a bit negative, I believe its not so bad as who wouldnt want to own this magnificent piece! The blade has a very powerfull presence! And its a wonder almost all MOPpiecses are still there. On style and origins, I would myself not ascribe it to Sulu but more to the mainland of Mindanao >Maranao?< as the handle (geometrically) resembles a horsefoot and Sulu-pieces tend to have more the gracious cockatoo type of handle. Enjoy the piece n regards, Indiana

24th October 2012, 12:19 PM	#8
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Not sure if anyone has mentioned that the blade is on the hilt backwards, and needs to be reset.

24th October 2012, 08:08 PM	#15
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Jacques, I'm with Jose: blade is Sulu - looks fairly typical to me. Jose, could you please point out what feels Indonesian to you? I'd believe the blade to be from the "Span-Am war" period or even maybe a bit earlier like last quarter of 19th c. Scabbard as well as hilt are distinctly Sulu and obviously a later restoration/replacement/addition (pre-WW2?). The MOP on the crosspiece, endpiece, and hilt are traditionally fastened with the pegs and most likely genuine (the very uncommon MOP grip would make this sword a status piece less suitable for fighting though). The other, unusual MOP pieces are not traditionally fastened with pegs and I guess these could be post-WW2 additions to merely up the bling factor. Jacques, can you make out how these are attached? The usual metal strips connecting the hilt to the asang-asang also appear to missing - maybe these got damaged/lost in a cleaning attempt and the hilt happened to be put on upside down afterwards? Heating the blade will help to get the hilt off; please take a pic of the hilt hole and the blade tang and post it - thanks! Regards, Kai

25th October 2012, 02:45 AM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	As I look at this again, I guess I was a little fooled by the asang-asang. They are truly done later than the blade. Their style and thinness sort of look Indonesian or Malay to me, if they were original and on a Malay or Indonesian sundang.

29th October 2012, 11:00 AM	#19
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Jacques, have a look at a pic Battara posted under the topic 'barong beauty'. The last pic he posted will show exactly your type of kris with the thin rattan lashing I meant (now gone and replaced by MOPshell) though with the engraved mop-shell pieces atop and bottom of the scabbard!

29th October 2012, 05:25 PM	#21
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Okee, so the kris from Jacques and the kris from the pic would have a different place of origin David? I may know a bit but am far from an expert on this area. I understand the blade is Sulu so would also the whole kris be considered Sulu? One can also notice the handle on the picture-kris is indeed in the opposite direction as the kris in question, as CharlesS noticed (first).