help for medieval handgonne hand gun identification

[sioume]

Hi Folks,

Is there any body who can help me to identify this iron cast barrel?
total lenght: 24,5 cm
largest diameter : 10,5 cm
mouth diameter : 9 cm
inner diameter of the mouth : 4 cm
weight: 7,4 kg
Very great patina

Is this a early late 14 th/15 th handgonne or a signaling mortar used by boats and harbors to signal each other. They would shot a different color signal depending on what they wanted to say
I read a thread depicting such barrels and Mathlock's collection but I am not sure at all.
Is it a valuable and rare piece?
Thanks a lot
Alain

[fernando]

Hi Alain,
A pity Matchlock will be absent for a while.
Your piece is very interesting; its dimendions are similar to my example posted HERE
While mine was considered a hand cannon and not a signal mortar, having to do with particular details for which Matchlock (for one) is a better judge,
i wouldn't advance on what yours is. The caliber and barrel thickness would suggest a cannon but the basis and touch hole with that slight lip (a repair?) suggest a (standing up) mortar.
I would agree is an old and very nice piece in any case. Naturaly cannons (handgonnes) are more rare, being much earlier than mortars; also the value depends on that.
I hope this helps and that i am not talking nonsense.

[sioume]

Thanks very much Fernando for your advice.

Yes I have already read your interested thread .
The slight lip is not a repair
Could you tell me if mortars are early pieces ?
Is such piece could be medieval?
What was the purpose of standing mortars?

I also think that Matchlock will be a great judge, I read his threads as well....Let's wait till he will be back !!!

Thanks for helping
Alain

[fernando]

When i say 'repair' i mean some addition from the period, not modern work.
By standing mortar i meant that usualy signaling mortars stand in a vertical position; reason why some times they have lips to deposit the gunpowder for ignition. Handgonnes/hand cannons are used horizontaly, generaly mounted in stocks or other supports. Mortars are used in signals, navy and land, as also in celebrations, religious and other. Exceptionaly they were used in war, set up as traps to defend castle gates and surroundings. Mortars are hardly medieval, as far as i know. The idea to use tubular devices for fire signals is later than that of developing handcannons, which date from the beginning of artillery.

[sioume]

Thanks Fernando,

This seems to be clear. I do not know if we will need the help of Matchlock !!

What would you say for its datation, 16 th, 17 th c.??

Merci
Alain

[fernando]

Ho, i wouldn't know; hardly 17th ... possibly 18th, as not 19th .
Mind you, in your first post you mentioned it is made in cast iron, but i would say it is forged iron. Cast iron mortars are definitely later ... like 19th.

[sioume]

Thanks Fernando,
Do we need to have the opinion of Matchlock to make sure...?
Your feelings..?

Obrigado
Alain

[fernando]

Bonjour Alain,
Not a minimum doubt that Matchlock is a person qualified enough to either confirm or correct my humble impressions.
Maybe we shall have him back within a couple weeks.
Cordialement .

[Matchlock]

Hi there,


Sorry for noticing that remarkable barrel only tonight; I had to stay in hospitals from Sept. 2012 through late April 2014.

This, in the author's opinion, is the barrel of

a High Gothic wrought-iron handgonne, ca. 1390-1400,
closely comparable to the specimen preserved in

The Michael Trömner Collection:
and re-attached down here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...0+wrought-iron
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nd+cannon+1400
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=barrel+1400

In its early working life, it may still have fired gun arrows:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=barrel+1400

For igniting irons and linstocks used to set off those guns, please see:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10029

Obviously, the rear end got of your barrel heavily swamped secondarily, for using it as a noise maker standing upright, or a door stopper - in the end.
The latter can still be found in alpine regions like Austria and Tyrol;
it happened to most of those 600 year-old earliest wrought-iron barrels.

In the aspects of historic weaponry, they are only important, and valuable, when preserved in unaltered original shape.

The bottom attachment depicts the so-called Bern gun, retaining its original stock; the hook is is a working-life addition of ca. 1430-40; preserved in the Historisches Museum Bern, Switzerland.


Best,
Michael Trömner

All photos copyrighted by the author, except that of the Bern gun, which is copyrighted by the Historisches Museum Bern.