PARADOX

VANDOO · 13th August 2012, 02:43 AM

IT SEEMS STRANGE TO ME THAT THOSE WHO HAVE ACCESS TO AND INFORMATION ON MORE EXAMPLES OF THE WEAPONS AND THINGS WE COLLECT SELDOM RECORD OR MAKE AVAILABLE THE DATA. THE RECORDS AND DATA NO DOUBT EXHIST AS WELL AS PICTURES BUT AFTER THE SALE IT IS OFTEN LOST OR AT BEST IS PRESERVED ONLY IN OLD SALES CATALOGS.
TO THINK OF THE INFORMATION THAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE TODAY IF AN EFFORT HAD BEEN MADE TO PRESERVE ANY UNIQUE EXAMPLES AS WELL AS THE MORE USUAL FORMS TO ESTABLISH A BASELINE FOR IDENTIFICATION AND RESEARCH. WHY IT HAS SELDOM BEEN DONE IS THE PARADOX, GEORGE CAMERON STONE WORKED WITH THE DEALERS AND MUSEUMS OF THE TIMES IN SUCH THINGS BUT WAS ONLY ONE MAN WITH THE SHORT LIFESPAN WE ARE ALLOTTED. LOOK WHAT HE ACCOMPLISHED.
THINK OF THE REFRENCE BOOKS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE OLD AUCTION HOUSES OLDMANS, CHRISTIES, SOUTHBYS AND OTHERS. THE DEALERS IN SUCH THINGS ALSO HAVE ACCESS TO MORE ITEMS THAN ANY COLLECTOR AND NO DOUBT HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION AND KNOWLEGE THAT COULD HAVE MADE A GOOD REFRENCE BOOKS. THE MAIL ORDER DEALERS I DID BUSINESS WITH WERE 1. THE MUSEUM OF HISTORICAL ARMS. 2. HOUSE OF SWORDS AND MILITARIA. 3. FAGAN AND COMPANY. 4. AKAL ARMS 5. FREDRICKS SWORDS AND OF COURSE 6. ORIENTAL ARMS. AMONG OTHERS.
THE POINT IS PROFIT MUST COME FIRST BUT WITH JUST A BIT MORE RECORD KEEPING AND PERHAPS A YEARLY PUBLICATION ON THE INTERNET A LOT OF KNOWLEGE COULD BE PRESERVED AND MADE AVAILABLE. THAT INFORMATION MIGHT BE PROFITABLE BUT IF NOT IT WOULD AT LEAST KEEP INTEREST UP AMONG OLD COLLECTORS AND PERHAPS START SOME NEW ONES FOR THE FUTURE. I HATE TO SEE A VALUABLE RESOURCE GO TO WASTE ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS A WAY TO SAVE IT. SEND THE INFORMATION TO THE FORUM OR START YOUR OWN. IF SENT TO THIS FORUM I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME OF US WHO WOULD BE GLAD TO FIND A PLACE FOR THE INFORMATION OR MAKE THE POSTS.
I AM NOT TRYING TO POKE DEALERS OR AUCTIONS HORNETS NESTS WITH A STICK, BUT DO THINK AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION HAS BEEN LOST AND WASTED OVER THE MANY YEARS.

Dom · 13th August 2012, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THINK OF THE REFRENCE BOOKS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE OLD AUCTION HOUSES OLDMANS, CHRISTIES, SOUTHBYS AND OTHERS. THE DEALERS IN SUCH THINGS ALSO HAVE ACCESS TO MORE ITEMS THAN ANY COLLECTOR AND NO DOUBT HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION AND KNOWLEGE THAT COULD HAVE MADE A GOOD REFRENCE BOOKS.

Good Day Vandoo
I'm fully agree with you, but the "copyrights" are an obstacle to produce on forum all type of publications
for instance, as far as possible, I'm going in Paris to all auctions, concerning, edged weapons, and more specially oriental arms,
I've their catalogs, I'll have to check if they are under "copyrights" or not
but also, almost every time, I mean for Drouot Auction House - Paris, the item description by the expert, it's too really fantasist ...
and, to don't said more, specially as far as it concerns ethnic weapons

the only pertinent informations from these catalog could be the item's picture and his price frozen at "that date",
the rest could be, only an indication, not a base a study,
at least according with my understanding
I'll examine the topic again, and maybe give it a try, you'll give me your opinion

best regards

best regards

à +

Dom

VANDOO · 13th August 2012, 04:51 AM

PERHAPS THE COPYWRITES COULD BE PUT ASIDE IF THE AUCTION HOUSE GAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR THE PICTURES AND INFORMATION TO BE USED ON A FORUM.
IF THEY HOLD THE COPYWRITE THEY COULD DO THE YEARLY PUBLICATION OR POST OF CLOSED AUCTIONS ON THE NET WITH NO PROBLEM. THE NET WOULD BE BEST AS IT CAN PRESENT BETTER AND MORE PICTURES OF ITEMS AT LITTLE COST. THE ADVANTAGE TO THE FORUMS WOULD BE MEMBERS COULD ADD TO OR CORRECT ANY INCORRECT INFORMATION.
INCORRECT INFORMATION IS SOMETIMES DONE HONESTLY AND AT OTHER TIMES TO INCREASE PRICES REALIZED. IT IS ESPECIALLY BAD ON EBAY AT PRESENT BECAUSE MANY DEALERS WANT TO TAP INTO ALL POSSIBLE SEARCHES. FOR EXAMPLE A COMMON PHILIPPINE TALBION MAY HAVE IN THE TITLE, (RARE, MORO, DAYAK, MAORI, ZULU, VOODOO, WITCHCRAFT, HEADHUNTER DAGGER). AN EXAGERATION BUT NOT TOO FAR OFF THE MARK

OFTEN WHEN A COLLECTION IS SOLD EITHER AT AUCTION OR AS AN ESTATE THE PERSONAL INFORMATION ON THE ITEMS ARE IGNORED OR SEPARATED FROM THE ITEMS AND LOST. THE AUCTION HOUSE CAN'T BE EXPECTED TO WRITE THE STORYS GIVEN BY THE COLLECTOR UNLESS IT IS PROPERLY PROVENANCED ALREADY AND SOMETIMES NOT EVEN THEN. OFTEN THEY HAVE SOMEONE WRITE IT UP WITH NONE OF THE COLLECTORS INFORMATION INCLUDED. IT WOULD TAKE A BIT OF WORK AND GOOD JUDGEMENT TO ORGANIZE AND PUT IN ORDER THE INFORMATION ANY OF US HAVE ON OUR COLLECTIONS. WHAT IS GOOD ACURATE INFORMATION AND WHAT IS JUST A GOOD STORY IS A JUDGEMENT CALL ESPECIALLY IN THE SELLING SPHERE OF THINGS.
I DON'T EXPECT THINGS TO CHANGE EXCEPT PERHAPS THE BIG AUCTION HOUSES MIGHT BE ABLE TO SELL A BOOK ONCE IN A WHILE FEATURING (THE BEST OF SOUTHBYS) IN VARIOUS FIELDS. THEY ALREADY MAKE QUITE A LOT ON CATALOGS WHICH UNFORTUNATELY DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE PICTURES FOR GOOD REFRENCE ON MANY ITEMS UNLESS YOU ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN PRICES REALIZED. JUST THOUGHT AND WISHES.

GOOD HUNTING AT THE AUCTIONS.

Rich · 13th August 2012, 01:10 PM

While old catalogs, etc are "usually" a good source of info, they should be taken for what they are - an atttempt to sell something. As for preserving info, I would suggest a do-it-yourself approach. I string tag all my knives and swords with maker, date and any important info. Hopefully that will stay with them when I'm long gone. Document all your collection yourself and keep the documentation with the collection or at least where it would be found in the future.

Rich S

VANDOO · 13th August 2012, 03:49 PM

I HAD NOT THOUGHT OF THE SOLD SECTION AS A GOOD REFRENCE BUT YOU ARE RIGHT THE INFORMATION IS PRESERVED THERE AND THE PICTURES ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE A GOOD REFRENCE. AT SOME POINT SUCH SECTIONS MAY HAVE TO BE REDUCED OR ORGANIZED INTO CULTURE OR REGION OVER TIME AS THEY BECOME TOO LARGE. PERHAPS A PERMANENT SECTION FEATURING EXCEPTIONAL OR ONE OF A KIND EXAMPLES WITH GOOD PROVENANCE COULD BE MAINTAINED OR PUT INTO BOOK OR INTERNET REFRENCE FORMS. IF SEVERAL DEALERS OR AUCTIONS COULD WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE SUCH A REFRENCE EVERY YEAR OR EVERY 5 YEARS OR SO DEPENDING ON HOW OFTEN ENOUGH MATERIAL COULD BE GATHERED.
THE COLLECTING COMUNITY SHOULD SUPPORT ( BUY) SUCH REFRENCES IF THE DEALERS GO TO THE TROUBLE AND EXPENSE OF DOING A GOOD REFRENCE. OVER THE COURSE OF SEVERAL YEARS A SET OF SUCH BOOKS OR COMPUTER FILES COULD EQUAL STONES GLOSSARY IN RANGE AND EXCEED IT IN GOOD PICTURES.
PERHAPS THE BIG AUCTION HOUSES HAVE A SIMULAR ONLINE CATALOG THAT REMAINS WITH INFORMATION AND ADEQUATE PICTURES. SUCH A SITE WOULD BE A LOT BETTER THAN MOST OLD CATALOGS AS THE PICTURES COULD BE LARGE ENOUGH AND GOOD ENOUGH FOR USE AS REFRENCE.
A COMPILATION OF EXCEPTIONAL AND UNJIQUE ITEMS ARRANGED BY CATEGORY, REGIONS, CULTURES COULD BE EASILY GATHERED EVERY FEW YEARS BY THE LARGE AUCTION HOUSES TO MAKE GOOD REFRENCES AS WELL.
THANKS FOR POINTING OUT THE SOLD LISTS TO ME I AM GLAD THAT SOME OF YOU HAVE HAD THE FORESIGHT AND HAVE MADE THE EFFORT TO PRESERVE THIS INFORMATION EVEN BEFORE I STARTED THIS POST.

Lee · 15th August 2012, 08:15 PM

Another useful resource may be the sold items archives available on several dealer's websites; you can follow this link to our dealer links page and navigate from there.

Many auction houses maintain a similar service.

A number of well intentioned posts had been added to this thread with links to a few sold items sections, however, following deliberation, the Moderators Team has disallowed these as the referenced pages were parts of active sales databases.

VANDOO · 15th August 2012, 08:49 PM

DARN I WAS TOO SLOW AND MISSED LOOKING AT THE LINKS

IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE THINGS WHERE THEY CAN EASILY BE FOUND AS LIFE IS SHORT AND THE INTERNET VERY CONFUZING, TIME CONSUMING AND OFTEN UNREWARDING. MOSTLY DUE TO MY LIMITED KNOWLEGE AND UNDERSTANDING OF TODAYS TECKNOLOGY. I OFTEN NEVER FIND WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR BUT ALWAYS FIND THINGS I DON'T KNOW ABOUT SO ITS NOT A TOTAL WASTE.

OF COURSE THERE IS MORE INFORMATION AVAILABLE NOW THAN EVER BEFORE AND THE CHANCES OF GETTING ACCESS TO RARE REFRENCE MATERIAL BETTER THAN EVER. ITS JUST ME I OFTEN CAN'T EVEN FIND OLD POSTS EVEN THOSE I STARTED ON THE FORUMS NO MATTER HOW MANY WAYS I SEARCH.

AT ANY RATE I HAVE FOUND THE MATERIAL IS BEING PRESERVED IN MANY PLACES AND TO VARIOUS DEGREES BY THOSE WHO DEAL IN THE TREASURES WE ALL LOVE. SO THIS POST HAS EXPRESSED THE THOUGHT AND SERVED ITS PURPOSE.

THANKS FOR THE LINK LEE I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT WAS THERE.

13th August 2012, 02:43 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	PARADOX IT SEEMS STRANGE TO ME THAT THOSE WHO HAVE ACCESS TO AND INFORMATION ON MORE EXAMPLES OF THE WEAPONS AND THINGS WE COLLECT SELDOM RECORD OR MAKE AVAILABLE THE DATA. THE RECORDS AND DATA NO DOUBT EXHIST AS WELL AS PICTURES BUT AFTER THE SALE IT IS OFTEN LOST OR AT BEST IS PRESERVED ONLY IN OLD SALES CATALOGS. TO THINK OF THE INFORMATION THAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE TODAY IF AN EFFORT HAD BEEN MADE TO PRESERVE ANY UNIQUE EXAMPLES AS WELL AS THE MORE USUAL FORMS TO ESTABLISH A BASELINE FOR IDENTIFICATION AND RESEARCH. WHY IT HAS SELDOM BEEN DONE IS THE PARADOX, GEORGE CAMERON STONE WORKED WITH THE DEALERS AND MUSEUMS OF THE TIMES IN SUCH THINGS BUT WAS ONLY ONE MAN WITH THE SHORT LIFESPAN WE ARE ALLOTTED. LOOK WHAT HE ACCOMPLISHED. THINK OF THE REFRENCE BOOKS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE OLD AUCTION HOUSES OLDMANS, CHRISTIES, SOUTHBYS AND OTHERS. THE DEALERS IN SUCH THINGS ALSO HAVE ACCESS TO MORE ITEMS THAN ANY COLLECTOR AND NO DOUBT HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION AND KNOWLEGE THAT COULD HAVE MADE A GOOD REFRENCE BOOKS. THE MAIL ORDER DEALERS I DID BUSINESS WITH WERE 1. THE MUSEUM OF HISTORICAL ARMS. 2. HOUSE OF SWORDS AND MILITARIA. 3. FAGAN AND COMPANY. 4. AKAL ARMS 5. FREDRICKS SWORDS AND OF COURSE 6. ORIENTAL ARMS. AMONG OTHERS. THE POINT IS PROFIT MUST COME FIRST BUT WITH JUST A BIT MORE RECORD KEEPING AND PERHAPS A YEARLY PUBLICATION ON THE INTERNET A LOT OF KNOWLEGE COULD BE PRESERVED AND MADE AVAILABLE. THAT INFORMATION MIGHT BE PROFITABLE BUT IF NOT IT WOULD AT LEAST KEEP INTEREST UP AMONG OLD COLLECTORS AND PERHAPS START SOME NEW ONES FOR THE FUTURE. I HATE TO SEE A VALUABLE RESOURCE GO TO WASTE ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS A WAY TO SAVE IT. SEND THE INFORMATION TO THE FORUM OR START YOUR OWN. IF SENT TO THIS FORUM I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME OF US WHO WOULD BE GLAD TO FIND A PLACE FOR THE INFORMATION OR MAKE THE POSTS. I AM NOT TRYING TO POKE DEALERS OR AUCTIONS HORNETS NESTS WITH A STICK, BUT DO THINK AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION HAS BEEN LOST AND WASTED OVER THE MANY YEARS.

15th August 2012, 08:15 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	Another useful resource may be... Another useful resource may be the sold items archives available on several dealer's websites; you can follow this link to our dealer links page and navigate from there. Many auction houses maintain a similar service. A number of well intentioned posts had been added to this thread with links to a few sold items sections, however, following deliberation, the Moderators Team has disallowed these as the referenced pages were parts of active sales databases.

15th August 2012, 08:49 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	DARN I WAS TOO SLOW AND MISSED LOOKING AT THE LINKS IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE THINGS WHERE THEY CAN EASILY BE FOUND AS LIFE IS SHORT AND THE INTERNET VERY CONFUZING, TIME CONSUMING AND OFTEN UNREWARDING. MOSTLY DUE TO MY LIMITED KNOWLEGE AND UNDERSTANDING OF TODAYS TECKNOLOGY. I OFTEN NEVER FIND WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR BUT ALWAYS FIND THINGS I DON'T KNOW ABOUT SO ITS NOT A TOTAL WASTE. OF COURSE THERE IS MORE INFORMATION AVAILABLE NOW THAN EVER BEFORE AND THE CHANCES OF GETTING ACCESS TO RARE REFRENCE MATERIAL BETTER THAN EVER. ITS JUST ME I OFTEN CAN'T EVEN FIND OLD POSTS EVEN THOSE I STARTED ON THE FORUMS NO MATTER HOW MANY WAYS I SEARCH. AT ANY RATE I HAVE FOUND THE MATERIAL IS BEING PRESERVED IN MANY PLACES AND TO VARIOUS DEGREES BY THOSE WHO DEAL IN THE TREASURES WE ALL LOVE. SO THIS POST HAS EXPRESSED THE THOUGHT AND SERVED ITS PURPOSE. THANKS FOR THE LINK LEE I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT WAS THERE. Last edited by VANDOO; 15th August 2012 at 09:13 PM.

13th August 2012, 04:51 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	PERHAPS THE COPYWRITES COULD BE PUT ASIDE IF THE AUCTION HOUSE GAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR THE PICTURES AND INFORMATION TO BE USED ON A FORUM. IF THEY HOLD THE COPYWRITE THEY COULD DO THE YEARLY PUBLICATION OR POST OF CLOSED AUCTIONS ON THE NET WITH NO PROBLEM. THE NET WOULD BE BEST AS IT CAN PRESENT BETTER AND MORE PICTURES OF ITEMS AT LITTLE COST. THE ADVANTAGE TO THE FORUMS WOULD BE MEMBERS COULD ADD TO OR CORRECT ANY INCORRECT INFORMATION. INCORRECT INFORMATION IS SOMETIMES DONE HONESTLY AND AT OTHER TIMES TO INCREASE PRICES REALIZED. IT IS ESPECIALLY BAD ON EBAY AT PRESENT BECAUSE MANY DEALERS WANT TO TAP INTO ALL POSSIBLE SEARCHES. FOR EXAMPLE A COMMON PHILIPPINE TALBION MAY HAVE IN THE TITLE, (RARE, MORO, DAYAK, MAORI, ZULU, VOODOO, WITCHCRAFT, HEADHUNTER DAGGER). AN EXAGERATION BUT NOT TOO FAR OFF THE MARK OFTEN WHEN A COLLECTION IS SOLD EITHER AT AUCTION OR AS AN ESTATE THE PERSONAL INFORMATION ON THE ITEMS ARE IGNORED OR SEPARATED FROM THE ITEMS AND LOST. THE AUCTION HOUSE CAN'T BE EXPECTED TO WRITE THE STORYS GIVEN BY THE COLLECTOR UNLESS IT IS PROPERLY PROVENANCED ALREADY AND SOMETIMES NOT EVEN THEN. OFTEN THEY HAVE SOMEONE WRITE IT UP WITH NONE OF THE COLLECTORS INFORMATION INCLUDED. IT WOULD TAKE A BIT OF WORK AND GOOD JUDGEMENT TO ORGANIZE AND PUT IN ORDER THE INFORMATION ANY OF US HAVE ON OUR COLLECTIONS. WHAT IS GOOD ACURATE INFORMATION AND WHAT IS JUST A GOOD STORY IS A JUDGEMENT CALL ESPECIALLY IN THE SELLING SPHERE OF THINGS. I DON'T EXPECT THINGS TO CHANGE EXCEPT PERHAPS THE BIG AUCTION HOUSES MIGHT BE ABLE TO SELL A BOOK ONCE IN A WHILE FEATURING (THE BEST OF SOUTHBYS) IN VARIOUS FIELDS. THEY ALREADY MAKE QUITE A LOT ON CATALOGS WHICH UNFORTUNATELY DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE PICTURES FOR GOOD REFRENCE ON MANY ITEMS UNLESS YOU ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN PRICES REALIZED. JUST THOUGHT AND WISHES. GOOD HUNTING AT THE AUCTIONS.

13th August 2012, 01:10 PM	#4
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	While old catalogs, etc are "usually" a good source of info, they should be taken for what they are - an atttempt to sell something. As for preserving info, I would suggest a do-it-yourself approach. I string tag all my knives and swords with maker, date and any important info. Hopefully that will stay with them when I'm long gone. Document all your collection yourself and keep the documentation with the collection or at least where it would be found in the future. Rich S

13th August 2012, 03:49 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAD NOT THOUGHT OF THE SOLD SECTION AS A GOOD REFRENCE BUT YOU ARE RIGHT THE INFORMATION IS PRESERVED THERE AND THE PICTURES ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE A GOOD REFRENCE. AT SOME POINT SUCH SECTIONS MAY HAVE TO BE REDUCED OR ORGANIZED INTO CULTURE OR REGION OVER TIME AS THEY BECOME TOO LARGE. PERHAPS A PERMANENT SECTION FEATURING EXCEPTIONAL OR ONE OF A KIND EXAMPLES WITH GOOD PROVENANCE COULD BE MAINTAINED OR PUT INTO BOOK OR INTERNET REFRENCE FORMS. IF SEVERAL DEALERS OR AUCTIONS COULD WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE SUCH A REFRENCE EVERY YEAR OR EVERY 5 YEARS OR SO DEPENDING ON HOW OFTEN ENOUGH MATERIAL COULD BE GATHERED. THE COLLECTING COMUNITY SHOULD SUPPORT ( BUY) SUCH REFRENCES IF THE DEALERS GO TO THE TROUBLE AND EXPENSE OF DOING A GOOD REFRENCE. OVER THE COURSE OF SEVERAL YEARS A SET OF SUCH BOOKS OR COMPUTER FILES COULD EQUAL STONES GLOSSARY IN RANGE AND EXCEED IT IN GOOD PICTURES. PERHAPS THE BIG AUCTION HOUSES HAVE A SIMULAR ONLINE CATALOG THAT REMAINS WITH INFORMATION AND ADEQUATE PICTURES. SUCH A SITE WOULD BE A LOT BETTER THAN MOST OLD CATALOGS AS THE PICTURES COULD BE LARGE ENOUGH AND GOOD ENOUGH FOR USE AS REFRENCE. A COMPILATION OF EXCEPTIONAL AND UNJIQUE ITEMS ARRANGED BY CATEGORY, REGIONS, CULTURES COULD BE EASILY GATHERED EVERY FEW YEARS BY THE LARGE AUCTION HOUSES TO MAKE GOOD REFRENCES AS WELL. THANKS FOR POINTING OUT THE SOLD LISTS TO ME I AM GLAD THAT SOME OF YOU HAVE HAD THE FORESIGHT AND HAVE MADE THE EFFORT TO PRESERVE THIS INFORMATION EVEN BEFORE I STARTED THIS POST.