Tulwar Thoughts?

LostDutchman · 10th July 2012, 06:10 PM

Hi gang!

I picked this piece up recently. I am a coin dealer by trade and I bought it in an deal. I'm a novice when it comes to these... I have gotten mixed reviews at another forum. I just thought I'd toss it up here for a fresh review.

Thanks!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th July 2012, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostDutchman

Hi gang!

I picked this piece up recently. I am a coin dealer by trade and I bought it in an deal. I'm a novice when it comes to these... I have gotten mixed reviews at another forum. I just thought I'd toss it up here for a fresh review.

Thanks!

Salaams LostDutchman ~ For a long set of details on various similar swords just type into search Tulvar. I see nothing wrong with this one...The Koftgari gold bladework is a bit worn perhaps and the blade is corroded but a little clean up would reveal a fair result... be very careful on cleaning the blade near the Koftgari or it will come off. As a coin dealer you will be aware of what materials to use in cleaning up the sword... lets see what it looks like after that...ya ! Welcome to the Forum !!

afternote; have a look at~ http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...indian+museums
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Rick · 11th July 2012, 04:39 PM

Looks like a nice example of the form with true age .

A picture of the cartouche on the blade may tell us all something .

Atlantia · 11th July 2012, 05:04 PM

we've been discussing this one... 'elsewhere' and there seems to me to be wootz under that rust and dirt.

P.S. Welcome the the forums Matt.

ATB
Gene

Atlantia · 11th July 2012, 05:52 PM

Matt, show those latest pics here. They are showing the blade activity very much better than my enhanced version of your previous pic does.

LostDutchman · 11th July 2012, 06:21 PM

Here are the newer blade shots.

eric45 · 12th July 2012, 03:39 AM

Nice sword.
Erich

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th July 2012, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostDutchman

Hi gang!

I picked this piece up recently. I am a coin dealer by trade and I bought it in an deal. I'm a novice when it comes to these... I have gotten mixed reviews at another forum. I just thought I'd toss it up here for a fresh review.

Thanks!

Salaams~ It looks like wootz. Please also see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15495 for a grand tour of a huge collection of Indian Swords...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

LostDutchman · 12th July 2012, 04:19 PM

Once again, Novice question...

Are we able to establish a time period when this piece would have been made by what I have shown?

Atlantia · 15th July 2012, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostDutchman

Once again, Novice question...

Are we able to establish a time period when this piece would have been made by what I have shown?

It's a really nice sword Matt.
I'd shove it into the later 18th century. But let's see what others think?

christek · 15th July 2012, 03:07 AM

Hello,

This is a wonderful tulwar, thank you for sharing

I am not an expert, but looking at the hilt of the sabre and making some comparisons; I would place the age of this design as late 18th or early 19th century, possibly a Mughal Empire piece.

Kind regards
Chris

Jim McDougall · 15th July 2012, 02:54 PM

Definitely Mughal motif in the koftgari, especially the representation at the forte of the tunkou as seen on yataghans etc. in Ottoman style. The bird may be a dove, these kinds of symbols are often seen in Mughal leitmotif of dynasties and in various sultanate courts. The heavy blade with yelman is associated with usually earlier blades carried forward traditionally recalled the Turkic ancestry of the Mughals.
While Mughal courts profoundly were drawn to Persian culture, the clear Ottoman influences were possibly due to the use of Ottoman mercenary forces throughout many sultanates.
I would say this is end of 18th into early 19th and probably from one of the Deccani sultanates, perhaps into the Delhi regions to the north. I have seen this kind of forte decoration on tulwars even with British blades, one I think of was a British M1788 light cavalry blade.

What is particularly interesting with this hybridization of British and Indian blade features is that many of the early prototypes of the M1796 light cavalry sabre had certain peculiarities of some Eastern swords. One example of British officers sabre I have has this same type of yelman or widened point. In England these raised back points were called notched or latchback while termed 'yelman' in various interpretations among oriental swords.

BTW, welcome to the forums 'Lost Dutchman'....great handle!! The fabled Lost Dutchman mine is pretty fascinating, and seeing the Superstition Mountains region pretty much explains how these legends came to being.
Those mountains are indeed deadly and recently claimed yet another victim.

All best regards,
Jim

10th July 2012, 06:10 PM	#1
LostDutchman Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 11	Tulwar Thoughts? Hi gang! I picked this piece up recently. I am a coin dealer by trade and I bought it in an deal. I'm a novice when it comes to these... I have gotten mixed reviews at another forum. I just thought I'd toss it up here for a fresh review. Thanks! Attached Images

11th July 2012, 05:04 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	we've been discussing this one... 'elsewhere' and there seems to me to be wootz under that rust and dirt. P.S. Welcome the the forums Matt. ATB Gene Attached Images

11th July 2012, 06:21 PM	#6
LostDutchman Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 11	Here are the newer blade shots. Attached Images

15th July 2012, 03:07 AM	#11
christek Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 52	Hello, This is a wonderful tulwar, thank you for sharing I am not an expert, but looking at the hilt of the sabre and making some comparisons; I would place the age of this design as late 18th or early 19th century, possibly a Mughal Empire piece. Kind regards Chris Last edited by christek; 15th July 2012 at 03:24 AM.

15th July 2012, 02:54 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Definitely Mughal motif in the koftgari, especially the representation at the forte of the tunkou as seen on yataghans etc. in Ottoman style. The bird may be a dove, these kinds of symbols are often seen in Mughal leitmotif of dynasties and in various sultanate courts. The heavy blade with yelman is associated with usually earlier blades carried forward traditionally recalled the Turkic ancestry of the Mughals. While Mughal courts profoundly were drawn to Persian culture, the clear Ottoman influences were possibly due to the use of Ottoman mercenary forces throughout many sultanates. I would say this is end of 18th into early 19th and probably from one of the Deccani sultanates, perhaps into the Delhi regions to the north. I have seen this kind of forte decoration on tulwars even with British blades, one I think of was a British M1788 light cavalry blade. What is particularly interesting with this hybridization of British and Indian blade features is that many of the early prototypes of the M1796 light cavalry sabre had certain peculiarities of some Eastern swords. One example of British officers sabre I have has this same type of yelman or widened point. In England these raised back points were called notched or latchback while termed 'yelman' in various interpretations among oriental swords. BTW, welcome to the forums 'Lost Dutchman'....great handle!! The fabled Lost Dutchman mine is pretty fascinating, and seeing the Superstition Mountains region pretty much explains how these legends came to being. Those mountains are indeed deadly and recently claimed yet another victim. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th July 2012 at 08:52 PM.

11th July 2012, 04:39 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Looks like a nice example of the form with true age . A picture of the cartouche on the blade may tell us all something .

11th July 2012, 05:52 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Matt, show those latest pics here. They are showing the blade activity very much better than my enhanced version of your previous pic does.

12th July 2012, 03:39 AM	#7
eric45 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: usa Posts: 32	Nice sword. Erich

12th July 2012, 04:19 PM	#9
LostDutchman Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 11	Once again, Novice question... Are we able to establish a time period when this piece would have been made by what I have shown?