Great Lakes Club?

Lew · 17th June 2012, 08:47 PM

Just ended on eBay a fine example of a circa 1800 Native American club in the shape of a Gar fish

. Evidently a 19th to early 20th century aboriginal club from Australia. Seems the seller went to the curator at the Cincinati museum of natural history and he agreed with him that it was a great lakes tribal club

. This just reinforces my opinion that most curators don't know what there talking about

The bottom one is in my collection.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...c#ht_500wt_922

Tim Simmons · 18th June 2012, 09:53 PM

Lew, are you saying you believed the seller for even one moment are you??

Lew · 18th June 2012, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Lew, are you saying you believed the seller for even one moment are you??

Tim

No!

Not for a minute

I emailed him some pics of some nulla nulla examples but he insists it's Native American. I told him the pictures don't lie guess he will find out the hard way

. It really amazes me that you see so many of these so called Native American rare clubs on eBay all claiming to be authentic. When they are either African clubs that have been altered by adding brass tacks and feathers or some other type of tribal club being passed off as Native American

. Guess I know more than the curator on this subject

. Now where did I put that Phd diploma?

VANDOO · 19th June 2012, 04:55 AM

I CHECKED TO SEE WHAT THE RANGE OF THE GARFISH IS AND IT IS SAID TO RANGE AS FAR NORTH AS QUEBECK CANADA AND SOUTH TO COSTA RICA. THERE ARE NO GAR LIVING IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD THOUGH FOSSILS ARE FOUND IN QUITE A FEW PLACES.
ONE OF THE PICTURES OF THIS CLUB SHOWES A CROSS HATCHED PATTERN THAT RESEMBLES GAR SCALE PATTERN BUT MOST DESIGN ON THE CLUB DOES NOT. THE DESIGN IS A COMMON ONE EVEN IN PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE NO ONE EVER SAW A GARFISH. I WOULD SAY THIS PATTERN ON AN AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINAL CLUB AND PERHAPS THE FACT THAT IT WAS FOUND IN AN ESTATE SALE OR SOMEWHERE IN THE USA. DOSEN'T MAKE IT A NATIVE AMERICAN CLUB.

AS FAR AS I KNOW THERE ARE NO NATIVE AMERICAN CLUBS IN THIS FORM ,BUT I AM CERTIANLY NO EXPERT ON NATIVE AMERICAN CLUBS AND HAVEN'T SEEN ALL POSSIBLE FORMS. IN MY EXPERIENCE IT FITS AUSTRALIAN CLUBS AND I HAVE SEEN MANY EXAMPLES FROM THERE.

AUSTRALIAN CLUBS WERE NOT EXPENSIVE IN THE PAST BUT NOW BRING A MUCH LARGER PRICE I GUESS THE AUSTRALIAN ECONOMY IS STRONG NOW SO THEY ARE COLLECTING. WHATEVER THE REASONS SOMETHING IS DRIVING THE PRICES UP.

Lew · 19th June 2012, 12:23 PM

Barry

Considering both clubs are made out of the same species of wood seals the deal for me. The seller states his is made of ironwood? Ironwood is only found in the Southern USA and Mexico specifically the Sonoran desert some 2000 miles from the great lakes region so I highly doubt if there was any type of trade between the two areas. Btw that hole that the seller claims to be the eye was probably made either to mount the club or it was made to accommodate some type of thong to help with gripping the end while swinging the club? The cross hatching on the grip matches the one on mine and all the others that I have seen. All the incised work were made with stone tools.

colin henshaw · 19th June 2012, 01:27 PM

Caveat emptor !

dbhmgb · 19th June 2012, 01:40 PM

But, it was owned by Alben Barkley!!!

fearn · 19th June 2012, 08:07 PM

Sorry Lew, there *is* an ironwood in the great lakes region, Ostrya virginiana. It's lovely, hard, dense wood, and would make a good club.

The problem is that there are over 50 different trees called "ironwood" all around the world. Wikipedia lists 30+ ironwood species and genera in their entry on "ironwood". One of my favorite trees is the Santa Cruz Ironwood (Lyonothamnus floribundus), which, although gorgeous, isn't unusually hard or heavy. The bark is iron-colored, red and gray, and so far as I can tell, that's where it got its name. It's more used as a street tree in California than as a lumber source.

The caveat emptor is that when someone says that "it's made out of ironwood," they've told you almost nothing. So far as I know, most ironwoods are hard and/or heavy, but that's about it. It could be something like the desert ironwood of the Sonoran desert, which is heavier than water and hard to work, or it can be one of the Casuarinas or a Eucalyptus, or the Lyonothamnus I already referred to. The term "ironwood" doesn't tell you much about what wood it is, where it's from, or even how hard or heavy it is. It is, however, a cool name, which is why it gets used so often.

Best,

F

Lew · 19th June 2012, 08:45 PM

Ok I stand corrected but it's obvious the club in question is aboriginal.

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/onl...a%20virginiana

fearn · 20th June 2012, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Ok I stand corrected but it's obvious the club in question is aboriginal.

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/onl...a%20virginiana

And I don't disagree with you there!

17th June 2012, 08:47 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Great Lakes Club? Just ended on eBay a fine example of a circa 1800 Native American club in the shape of a Gar fish . Evidently a 19th to early 20th century aboriginal club from Australia. Seems the seller went to the curator at the Cincinati museum of natural history and he agreed with him that it was a great lakes tribal club . This just reinforces my opinion that most curators don't know what there talking about The bottom one is in my collection. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...c#ht_500wt_922 Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 17th June 2012 at 09:38 PM.

19th June 2012, 04:55 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I CHECKED TO SEE WHAT THE RANGE OF THE GARFISH IS AND IT IS SAID TO RANGE AS FAR NORTH AS QUEBECK CANADA AND SOUTH TO COSTA RICA. THERE ARE NO GAR LIVING IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD THOUGH FOSSILS ARE FOUND IN QUITE A FEW PLACES. ONE OF THE PICTURES OF THIS CLUB SHOWES A CROSS HATCHED PATTERN THAT RESEMBLES GAR SCALE PATTERN BUT MOST DESIGN ON THE CLUB DOES NOT. THE DESIGN IS A COMMON ONE EVEN IN PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE NO ONE EVER SAW A GARFISH. I WOULD SAY THIS PATTERN ON AN AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINAL CLUB AND PERHAPS THE FACT THAT IT WAS FOUND IN AN ESTATE SALE OR SOMEWHERE IN THE USA. DOSEN'T MAKE IT A NATIVE AMERICAN CLUB. AS FAR AS I KNOW THERE ARE NO NATIVE AMERICAN CLUBS IN THIS FORM ,BUT I AM CERTIANLY NO EXPERT ON NATIVE AMERICAN CLUBS AND HAVEN'T SEEN ALL POSSIBLE FORMS. IN MY EXPERIENCE IT FITS AUSTRALIAN CLUBS AND I HAVE SEEN MANY EXAMPLES FROM THERE. AUSTRALIAN CLUBS WERE NOT EXPENSIVE IN THE PAST BUT NOW BRING A MUCH LARGER PRICE I GUESS THE AUSTRALIAN ECONOMY IS STRONG NOW SO THEY ARE COLLECTING. WHATEVER THE REASONS SOMETHING IS DRIVING THE PRICES UP. Attached Images

19th June 2012, 12:23 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Barry Considering both clubs are made out of the same species of wood seals the deal for me. The seller states his is made of ironwood? Ironwood is only found in the Southern USA and Mexico specifically the Sonoran desert some 2000 miles from the great lakes region so I highly doubt if there was any type of trade between the two areas. Btw that hole that the seller claims to be the eye was probably made either to mount the club or it was made to accommodate some type of thong to help with gripping the end while swinging the club? The cross hatching on the grip matches the one on mine and all the others that I have seen. All the incised work were made with stone tools. Last edited by Lew; 19th June 2012 at 12:45 PM.

19th June 2012, 01:27 PM	#6
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Caveat emptor ! Last edited by Lew; 19th June 2012 at 01:43 PM.

19th June 2012, 08:07 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Sorry Lew, there is an ironwood in the great lakes region, Ostrya virginiana. It's lovely, hard, dense wood, and would make a good club. The problem is that there are over 50 different trees called "ironwood" all around the world. Wikipedia lists 30+ ironwood species and genera in their entry on "ironwood". One of my favorite trees is the Santa Cruz Ironwood (Lyonothamnus floribundus), which, although gorgeous, isn't unusually hard or heavy. The bark is iron-colored, red and gray, and so far as I can tell, that's where it got its name. It's more used as a street tree in California than as a lumber source. The caveat emptor is that when someone says that "it's made out of ironwood," they've told you almost nothing. So far as I know, most ironwoods are hard and/or heavy, but that's about it. It could be something like the desert ironwood of the Sonoran desert, which is heavier than water and hard to work, or it can be one of the Casuarinas or a Eucalyptus, or the Lyonothamnus I already referred to. The term "ironwood" doesn't tell you much about what wood it is, where it's from, or even how hard or heavy it is. It is, however, a cool name, which is why it gets used so often. Best, F Last edited by fearn; 19th June 2012 at 08:19 PM.

18th June 2012, 09:53 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Lew, are you saying you believed the seller for even one moment are you??

19th June 2012, 01:40 PM	#7
dbhmgb Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 112	But, it was owned by Alben Barkley!!!

19th June 2012, 08:45 PM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ok I stand corrected but it's obvious the club in question is aboriginal. http://www.woodworkerssource.com/onl...a%20virginiana