Khyber and Choora with Bukharan (?) twists

ariel · 4th February 2012, 01:06 PM

Both weapons are traditionally attributed to Afghanistan, mainly to the Khyber Pass area.
But here are 2 with decorative twists.
The Choora has a ribbon of turquoise stones in a typical Bukharan style. Never saw anything like that before. Looks 100% original.
Khyber has fittings made of very thick silver, the finial is short unlike the usual Afghani long and slender, but remenescent of Uzbeki style, and the chape is decorated with apple blossoms,- also favourite Bukharan motive.
Any thoughts?

AJ1356 · 4th February 2012, 02:19 PM

Eventhough Seylaawa's are attributed to the Khyber pass, it does not mean they are all made there. I find the source of confussion the inaccurate names that were given to many ethnographic weapons. That being said, the background of the non-pashtu speaking people of what is today Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are pretty close. Plus Bukhara and Samarqand are actually Tajik cities not Uzbek(which by twist of faith are located in todays Uzbekistan). Therefore the motives on art work are pretty close to each other since there was trade, and an artisan would mostlikely copy styles of different regions to make his handywork look better. Plus there were lots of immegrants from Bukhara and Samarqand in Afghanistan whose handywork would resemble the styles of thier homelands. Turqouise is a pretty common stone and is not exclusively used by a certain ethnicity. Choora is another term that no-one uses in Afghanistan, we simply know them as Kard (knife). Anyways, They are both nice peices and I believe were made by more skilled smiths of Kabul or other bigger cities.

fspic · 5th February 2012, 06:25 AM

An associate who collects these things says the long bladed version of the kard in the illustration is a choora. Or at least in America and other English speaking places. Mine has a blade length of 18" and a larger grip.

ariel · 5th February 2012, 07:24 AM

Which one did he refer to?

ariel · 5th February 2012, 09:49 AM

AJ1356:
"Plus Bukhara and Samarqand are actually Tajik cities not Uzbek(which by twist of faith are located in todays Uzbekistan)."

At the time these two weapons were made, there were neither Tajikistan, nor Uzbekistan: just a medley of khanates. Tajiks are Persian-speaking, and Uzbeks speak Turkic dialect. Tajiks originally were land-settled, while Uzbeks trace themselves to the nomadic descendants of Gengiz Khan. Tajiks usually view themselves as belonging to a "civilized" race, and despise "barbaric" Uzbek intruders ( even though those lived there since 6th or 7th century and many likely belonged to the same ethic group originally). Their food is virtually identical, but with some twists: Uzbeks, for example, have dishes from horse meat and use milk, while Tajiks don't ( both staples likely reflecting nomadic past of the Uzbeks). In both places, Sunni Islam is predominant, however.

In the former Soviet Union one was taking his life in his own hands by mistakenly referring to a Tajik as Uzbek.

A somewhat similar animosity was encountered in former Yugoslavia, between, say, Serbs and Croats or Bosnians. The apparent silliness of that approach finally culminated in tragic outcomes of wars and mass murders during WWII and quite recently.

AJ1356 · 5th February 2012, 02:21 PM

Ariel, when I said Samarqand and Bukhara are Tajik cities it did not mean they are or were part of todays Tajikistan, it meant that when these 2 items were made and somewhat to this day, those 2 cities were predominantly populated by Tajiks. Actually they were populated by Farsi speakers well before the Mongol invation.

ariel · 5th February 2012, 05:17 PM

Let's stop right here. From personal experience on this Forum, nothing good comes out of the discussions dealing with ethnic policies, grievancies and perceived primacies.
May they all enjoy the proverbial life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I have a book on Uzbek metalwork, nothing on Tajik; do you know of any? Did Tajiks use turquoise ribbons on their weapons? To the best of my knowledge, this was characteristic of Bukhara proper. Any apple blossoms as a decorating element? Do you know of any published examples of unquestionably Tajik swords, manufacturing centers etc? I just know the difference between the knives: Uzbeki Pichok ( P'chack) vs. Tajik Kord ( subtle but obvious).
Best.

Gavin Nugent · 5th February 2012, 06:38 PM

From a Russian Museum site;

The Central Asian name of turquoise derived from Iranian word firusa - victory; therefore its presence on the weapon endowed the latter with especially strong magic power, providing good luck at war. Turquoise became especially common in war paraphernalia of Turkic peoples.

This would explain the stones being seen across a vast area.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th February 2012, 06:53 PM

Salaams all I noted the decorative technique of studding Feruze onto small silver boxes and jewelery by master craftsmen in Kabul. Naturally and as stated above this was for talismanic effect and design...Like many techniques there is bound to be some overlap so that Turkomen Jewellery etc exhibits similar designs and methodology to Afghan, Tajic and a host of other ethnic groups in what we now call Afghanistan. (and neighboring countries) When I was in Kabul I tried all the well known collector names for the different knives and daggers but Kard was what they use for any dagger I saw.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fspic · 6th February 2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Which one did he refer to?

He referred to the shorter knife in your illustration. The longer one is as we call it here, is a Khyber knife/sword. The short one does have a much longer version which is called a choora. I will try to get a pic of mine and send it to you directly. I also have a khyber "sword" which is rather older and which this party said would have been still longer had not the tip been presumably broken off and blended in the usual upsweep. This one has a metal bird's head grip and koftgari scratching visible. He also said it was likely gold koftgari for that time period and blade and handle type. This latter blade would have been over 30" long.

ariel · 6th February 2012, 01:59 AM

I said from the beginning that the "shorter one" was choora. It is of a reasonably normal size: 17" in the scabbard.
Wold love to see your example.

AJ1356 · 6th February 2012, 04:42 AM

The so-called apple blossom is a common motive, residents of Bukhara were perdominantly Tajik, so thier handywork would be Tajik not Uzbek. If no collector book is printed on a subject does not mean it does not exist, and is this book the same book that tells you there was an arsenal in Mazar e Sharif, that made stuff with the mosque stamp? I am trying to provide proper information for the benefit of everyone, because there are heaps of wrong information floating around. If you don't want to accept that because it is not in a book, that is your right.

Rick · 6th February 2012, 04:50 AM

And we will all take a deep breath and smile at one another before we continue, yes ?

ariel · 6th February 2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

The so-called apple blossom is a common motive, residents of Bukhara were perdominantly Tajik, so thier handywork would be Tajik not Uzbek. If no collector book is printed on a subject does not mean it does not exist, and is this book the same book that tells you there was an arsenal in Mazar e Sharif, that made stuff with the mosque stamp? I am trying to provide proper information for the benefit of everyone, because there are heaps of wrong information floating around. If you don't want to accept that because it is not in a book, that is your right.

Many thanks for your opinions. I respect them, but would like to have them supported by a more systematic source.
The Uzbeki book is the only one I have on Central Asian weapons ( except for Moser and a chapter in Elgood's book on Islamic Weapons). We all try to rely on published and peer-reviewed academic literature, don't we?
You might be right, and the what we traditionally call Bukharan style ( or Samarkand, or Chust, or whatever, - they are all discussed and differentiated in the book Song in Metal, published in Uzbekistan, by Uzbeki authors), is actually Tajik, not Uzbek, handiwork and tradition.
There are studies on Caucasian weapons differentiating West Georgian from East Georgian, Lak from Avar, Meghreli from Circassian styles etc, etc. Similarly, Elgood tried to find peculiarities of weapons produced in Boka Kotorska, Foca, Bosnia and others.
I am interested how do you differentiate Tajik from Uzbeki weapons and styles? Just an assertions that there were Tajiks in Uzbekistan is not enough: there were, and still are, Uzbeks living in Dushanbe and other Tajik areas.

In short, you provide a tantalizing piece of information, and we all would like to have it supported by academic evidence.
Best wishes.

fspic · 7th February 2012, 12:44 AM

These are quick shots of the edged weapons in the pesh kahbz. One is relatively new and in excellent condition but with a rather soft blade. The one with the horn fluted grips is the real thing with a fully hardened dark somewhat pitted blade which is made to penetrate heavy padding or light armor. The long bladed beastie is the choora. I saw one on eBay once but that is about it. I wouldn't mind commissioning one like it.

On the various items temporarily hung on the wall is a very long third knife of this type but much older. It is all metal with a bird's head grip which has koftgari scratches but no inlay or overlay which I am told would have been gold. The original blade, probably broken at the very thin tip, was blended into a nice upsweep. I hope the pics come up OK - oops! Looks like I have to figure out using my new zip file.

AJ1356 · 7th February 2012, 01:13 PM

let me get the name of this book of yours, and as soon as I find a book I'll share it.

ariel · 8th February 2012, 12:02 AM

T. Abdullayev, D. Fakhretdinova, A. Khakimov

"A Song in Metal. Folk Art of Uzbekistan"
Tashkent, Gafur Gulyam Art and Literature Publishers. 1986

There is no ISBN

You can find it here:
http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac...2520uzbekistan

ariel · 9th February 2012, 02:54 AM

Well, AFAIK, a request for information usually includes the "magic word" ( aka "please"), and a receipt of requested information is usually acknowledged by yet another "magic word", aka " thank you". Is it different in Nashville? :-)

Andrew · 9th February 2012, 04:03 AM

Let me try:

"Please" keep this type of discourse off-forum. "Thank you."

Thread closed before someone types something they will regret.

Andrew

4th February 2012, 01:06 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Khyber and Choora with Bukharan (?) twists Both weapons are traditionally attributed to Afghanistan, mainly to the Khyber Pass area. But here are 2 with decorative twists. The Choora has a ribbon of turquoise stones in a typical Bukharan style. Never saw anything like that before. Looks 100% original. Khyber has fittings made of very thick silver, the finial is short unlike the usual Afghani long and slender, but remenescent of Uzbeki style, and the chape is decorated with apple blossoms,- also favourite Bukharan motive. Any thoughts? Attached Images

4th February 2012, 02:19 PM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	Eventhough Seylaawa's are attributed to the Khyber pass, it does not mean they are all made there. I find the source of confussion the inaccurate names that were given to many ethnographic weapons. That being said, the background of the non-pashtu speaking people of what is today Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are pretty close. Plus Bukhara and Samarqand are actually Tajik cities not Uzbek(which by twist of faith are located in todays Uzbekistan). Therefore the motives on art work are pretty close to each other since there was trade, and an artisan would mostlikely copy styles of different regions to make his handywork look better. Plus there were lots of immegrants from Bukhara and Samarqand in Afghanistan whose handywork would resemble the styles of thier homelands. Turqouise is a pretty common stone and is not exclusively used by a certain ethnicity. Choora is another term that no-one uses in Afghanistan, we simply know them as Kard (knife). Anyways, They are both nice peices and I believe were made by more skilled smiths of Kabul or other bigger cities. Last edited by AJ1356; 4th February 2012 at 05:54 PM.

7th February 2012, 12:44 AM	#15
fspic Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 27	Pesh-kahbz and/or Choora These are quick shots of the edged weapons in the pesh kahbz. One is relatively new and in excellent condition but with a rather soft blade. The one with the horn fluted grips is the real thing with a fully hardened dark somewhat pitted blade which is made to penetrate heavy padding or light armor. The long bladed beastie is the choora. I saw one on eBay once but that is about it. I wouldn't mind commissioning one like it. On the various items temporarily hung on the wall is a very long third knife of this type but much older. It is all metal with a bird's head grip which has koftgari scratches but no inlay or overlay which I am told would have been gold. The original blade, probably broken at the very thin tip, was blended into a nice upsweep. I hope the pics come up OK - oops! Looks like I have to figure out using my new zip file.

5th February 2012, 06:25 AM	#3
fspic Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 27	An associate who collects these things says the long bladed version of the kard in the illustration is a choora. Or at least in America and other English speaking places. Mine has a blade length of 18" and a larger grip.

5th February 2012, 07:24 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Which one did he refer to?

5th February 2012, 09:49 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	AJ1356: "Plus Bukhara and Samarqand are actually Tajik cities not Uzbek(which by twist of faith are located in todays Uzbekistan)." At the time these two weapons were made, there were neither Tajikistan, nor Uzbekistan: just a medley of khanates. Tajiks are Persian-speaking, and Uzbeks speak Turkic dialect. Tajiks originally were land-settled, while Uzbeks trace themselves to the nomadic descendants of Gengiz Khan. Tajiks usually view themselves as belonging to a "civilized" race, and despise "barbaric" Uzbek intruders ( even though those lived there since 6th or 7th century and many likely belonged to the same ethic group originally). Their food is virtually identical, but with some twists: Uzbeks, for example, have dishes from horse meat and use milk, while Tajiks don't ( both staples likely reflecting nomadic past of the Uzbeks). In both places, Sunni Islam is predominant, however. In the former Soviet Union one was taking his life in his own hands by mistakenly referring to a Tajik as Uzbek. A somewhat similar animosity was encountered in former Yugoslavia, between, say, Serbs and Croats or Bosnians. The apparent silliness of that approach finally culminated in tragic outcomes of wars and mass murders during WWII and quite recently.

5th February 2012, 02:21 PM	#6
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	Ariel, when I said Samarqand and Bukhara are Tajik cities it did not mean they are or were part of todays Tajikistan, it meant that when these 2 items were made and somewhat to this day, those 2 cities were predominantly populated by Tajiks. Actually they were populated by Farsi speakers well before the Mongol invation.

5th February 2012, 05:17 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Let's stop right here. From personal experience on this Forum, nothing good comes out of the discussions dealing with ethnic policies, grievancies and perceived primacies. May they all enjoy the proverbial life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I have a book on Uzbek metalwork, nothing on Tajik; do you know of any? Did Tajiks use turquoise ribbons on their weapons? To the best of my knowledge, this was characteristic of Bukhara proper. Any apple blossoms as a decorating element? Do you know of any published examples of unquestionably Tajik swords, manufacturing centers etc? I just know the difference between the knives: Uzbeki Pichok ( P'chack) vs. Tajik Kord ( subtle but obvious). Best.

5th February 2012, 06:38 PM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	From a Russian Museum site; The Central Asian name of turquoise derived from Iranian word firusa - victory; therefore its presence on the weapon endowed the latter with especially strong magic power, providing good luck at war. Turquoise became especially common in war paraphernalia of Turkic peoples. This would explain the stones being seen across a vast area.

5th February 2012, 06:53 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all I noted the decorative technique of studding Feruze onto small silver boxes and jewelery by master craftsmen in Kabul. Naturally and as stated above this was for talismanic effect and design...Like many techniques there is bound to be some overlap so that Turkomen Jewellery etc exhibits similar designs and methodology to Afghan, Tajic and a host of other ethnic groups in what we now call Afghanistan. (and neighboring countries) When I was in Kabul I tried all the well known collector names for the different knives and daggers but Kard was what they use for any dagger I saw. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

6th February 2012, 01:59 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I said from the beginning that the "shorter one" was choora. It is of a reasonably normal size: 17" in the scabbard. Wold love to see your example.

6th February 2012, 04:42 AM	#12
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	The so-called apple blossom is a common motive, residents of Bukhara were perdominantly Tajik, so thier handywork would be Tajik not Uzbek. If no collector book is printed on a subject does not mean it does not exist, and is this book the same book that tells you there was an arsenal in Mazar e Sharif, that made stuff with the mosque stamp? I am trying to provide proper information for the benefit of everyone, because there are heaps of wrong information floating around. If you don't want to accept that because it is not in a book, that is your right.

6th February 2012, 04:50 AM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	And we will all take a deep breath and smile at one another before we continue, yes ?

7th February 2012, 01:13 PM	#16
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	let me get the name of this book of yours, and as soon as I find a book I'll share it.

8th February 2012, 12:02 AM	#17
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	T. Abdullayev, D. Fakhretdinova, A. Khakimov "A Song in Metal. Folk Art of Uzbekistan" Tashkent, Gafur Gulyam Art and Literature Publishers. 1986 There is no ISBN You can find it here: http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac...2520uzbekistan

9th February 2012, 02:54 AM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, AFAIK, a request for information usually includes the "magic word" ( aka "please"), and a receipt of requested information is usually acknowledged by yet another "magic word", aka " thank you". Is it different in Nashville? :-)

9th February 2012, 04:03 AM	#19
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Let me try: "Please" keep this type of discourse off-forum. "Thank you." Thread closed before someone types something they will regret. Andrew