Spanish cup-hilts and bilbos for naval use?

M ELEY · 22nd January 2012, 05:35 PM

I know we have touched on this subject time and again, but I'm always curious as to other's opinions. AS a naval collector, I've always been drawn to the Spanish, Portuguese and Span colonial rapiers and broadswords of the period and their possible use at sea. Naval weapons used prior to the mid-18th century in all nations as far as specific patterns remains speculative.

-Consulting the experts, Rankin and Gilkerson do not touch upon these countries in their research. Neither does Annis.

-May's monumental two volume series mentions all about the naval power of Spain and Portugal, but mentions only the use of brass-hilted small-swords (without the colichemard blades preferred by other nval powers) being carried in the early/mid-18th centuries. As small-swords were typically a sign of rank on board ships, I am assuming these were strictly officer's swords and not what the common man would have access to in boarding/battle.

-Brinckerhoff deftly defines the forms of colonial weapons in his work, but goes on to say that colonial cup hilt rapiers were carried by foot-soldiers while the broadsword/bilbo types were carried by mounted troops. Again, no mention of what the greatest naval power in the world was carrying during their conquests. Where is the documentation of what they had access to??
His book goes on to show early 19th century Spanish cutlasses that copied both the French m1801/1833 pattern as well as brass-hilted small hangers, but this is past the time period of Spanish naval power. Interestingly, the classic short espada with it's side guard would have made an ideal sea weapon, resembling the hangers popular with other naval powers of the time period. But in this, Brinckerhoff is firm; espada were used by the rancheros and horsemen of the plains as a weapon and machete-tool.

-This lead me to automatically speculate that without any other contender, the side-arm swords of the Spanish and Portuguese armadas had to be cup-hilt rapiers. Yet, Norman says in his book that the evidence of the time shows that the rapier was a civilian weapon only! Now this might not be true for privateers/pirates and the Spanish colonial provinces (Caribbean), but is so, what weapon is left?? I am told the Knights of Malta used cup-hilts on thier barges for raids, but have yet to find more proof.

-Naval weapons prior to the mid-18th century was an open free-for-all. There are documented weapons such as artillery swords, hangers, small swords, Scottish baskethilts, infantry swords, walloons, so-called Sinclaire sabers, etc, going to sea. With this in mond, I am still convinced that the typical sailor of the time-period, regardless of country, took with him what he knew and felt comfortable with. One of the main reasons Spanish sword forms lasted as long as they did (the bilbo, double guard configuration) was because of tradition and familiarity.

Long story short (my thesis-

):I do believe cup-hilts went to sea, but it would be nice if some better proof could be produced. I am going to do more research on portraits of the time period, likewise shipwreck research on recovered artifacts next to see if this sheds any light. In the meantime, how do you weigh in???

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2012, 10:14 PM

Yay! an essay question

This is really a great topic Mark, and I know we've touched on it many times through the years, but it remains as elusive as ever as far as tangible proof, whether swords such as the baskethilt and the cuphilt actually were used at sea.
I remember quite a few years back trying to find proof on the use of the Scottish baskethilt at sea, and no definitive results forthcoming even after contacting the National Maritime Museum and other authorities with the suggestion firmly in place, but virtually unprovable forensically.

I think with that, as you recall, the closest to proof was the account of the death of Blackbeard in which the fatal blow was struck by a Highlander among Maynards men 'using his broadsword'. We know that Maynards forces were assembled from men from the Carolinas joining his naval force, and that Highlanders with broadswords were well represented in those regions in those times from those immigrating from Scotland. However, this is perhaps the closest actual account of a Highland broadsword (baskethilt) used aboard a ship. Considering the size of these vessels I suppose this would suggest that in theory, these full sized weapons would be at least in degree feasible in actual combative situations. The fact that Scottish baskethilts were typically already japanned (painted black) or russeted to prevent rust in the damp Highlands may have also added to the favor of these type weapons for maritime use.
Annis ("Naval Swords:, p.10) also notes "...the Scottish broadsword was far from being unknown at sea". Again, this assertion is physically unsubstantiated.

Getting to the actual use of swords aboard ships, it is known of course that there were no real regulations or standards as to what edged weapons may have been used on vessels, and obviously whatever modicum of regulation might exist on naval vessels would have no bearing on merchant ships. On pirate or privateers this would be emphatically the case.
Gilkerson does note (p.108) that in the Spanish navy the long bladed rapier of the soldier was the commonest shipboard fighting blade throughout the 18th into the 19th c. This as we know is broadly assumed, and as both cuphilts with 'arming' blades and bilbos were used primarly by infantry and dismounted troops in colonial New Spain, it would be difficult to prove as there are no distinctive naval markings known (the fouled anchor only began in England about pre American Revolution). As far as I know there are no paintings or illustrations reflecting sea going weaponry from Spain from these times. We do know that while infantry and some cavalry weapons were chosen randomly, but by late in the 18th century the smallsword had become regulation for Spanish naval officers in accord with French, British and American practice of the times (Annis p.10, "Naval Swords").

As far as examples being found on shipwrecks, which would of course be ideal, I am unaware of any examples found aboard Spanish wrecks of cuphilts. As for the baskethilt, there is an example which was found on the wreck of the English "Sea Venture" off the Bahamas, which was I believe late 16th century and referenced in several articles. This was of course an early English type baskethilt, but again goes to use of the form on board. This of course may have been other than crew and simply belonging to someone aboard being transported. As Annis suggests (op.cit. p.10) many of the swords worn by officers and officials aboard ships may have been more for fashion or wear on ceremonial occasion than actual combat weapons.

In the case of most Spanish wrecks, obviously the attention is primarily toward the valuable cargo, but as far as I know no cuphilts have ever been found. There was a galleon found off Manila which surprisingly had aboard a good number of Japanese swords, but these seem to have been part of a cargo rather than in use on board by Samurai who did apparantly ally with the Spanish in some circumstances back in those early times (I forget the details). I know of a group of rapier blades found on a Spanish wreck off Panama and again these were cargo apparantly bound for the colonies for refurbishing the rapiers traditionally still in service there.

It will be good to continue the search just the same, and frankly any evidence of cuphilts or for that matter other items is usually foreshadowed by the attention to valuables where Spanish ships are involved.

Well thats my entry, I hope others will join too !!!

Great topic!!!!!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 23rd January 2012, 02:00 AM

Hello Jim and great to hear from you! I had sent you a PM awhile back to see how you were doing. I was hoping you would come in on this. I hope others might as well. Just a few comments on your excellent and thorough essay-

-Excellent point about Maynard's crew. I hadn't thought of it in that way. Of course some of his crew would have been local, and considering that there is a strong Scot population in NC. Likewise, information on that Bahamas wreck with a broadsword type is most interesting. I'll look into that one...

-Gilkerson's comment-Wow, totally missed that one in my copy. Must have been hurrying as always. That single statement might be all we have to grasp at for now, but it does lend to the argument that said swords did go to sea.

-No naval markings on said swords to prove naval provenance. This is so typical that I don't even flinch to hear it anymore. For every sword with a naval mark, it would seem that there were far more unmarked. Given that so many generic types were produced for both the army and navy in later centuries, it stands to reason that this practice came from previous centuries. Remember that lion-pommel officer's sword I posted recently? Carried by officers of both the army and navy. I likewise have found that with the merchant fleets and private purchase of weapons, you had unmarked/non-govt issue types.

-Bummer about the shipwrecks not yielding any examples of cup-hilt, but the sailors had to have carried something. It is one thing if other rusted relics of other sword types had been found, but it sounds like no edged weapons have been recovered. The Spanish were always being set upon by pirates. They were always facing the boarding parties of the English and Dutch. Likewise, when they reached their destination, the Portuguese and Spanish sent out scouting parties of soldiers, rounded up slaves, etc. There had to be some type of weapon carried. Perhaps some will turn up on a well-preserved wreck one of these days...

M ELEY · 23rd January 2012, 04:06 PM

Having done some research myself on shipwrecks, it has become very apparent that very few sword parts from wrecks of ANY nationality survive. The Queen Anne's Revenge has yielded only one sword guard. The Whydah likewise is scant. The Atocha did have one rapier turn up, but it was a swept-hilt vs the cup-hilt I'm inquiring about. Having done some searches and learning about what survives these wrecks, it became apparent why few survive (other than the obvious corrosion of iron items).

So far, the blades recovered from these wrecks have been, as Jim pointed out, trade items in the hold. With underwater archaeology, it was become known that delicate items, such as wood-stocked guns, daggers, swords, cloth, etc, that has survived had been stored in the hold. When many of these ships sunk, the hold was rapidly buried under the sand, with many of the said artifacts protected. Arms that would have been worn by the crew were not so protected. Yes, I know most crews didn't go walking around the ship armed, but they would have been readily available (at a weapons station on deck, mounted to a mast, in a storage barrel for boarders, etc. Likewise, surviving members who were so armed would have escaped with their weapons (survival after a shipwreck on a strange coast would have depended on it). Soooo...perhaps we'll never be sure if the Spanish and Portuguese carried these sword types to sea.

Jim McDougall · 23rd January 2012, 07:11 PM

Hi Mark,
As always, good points and well placed research notes. As far as I know there have been a few cases of sword components found on some English wrecks associated with pirates, notably as mentioned the Whydah and the Henrietta Marie as well. These were of course the hunting hanger type weapons and were severely encrusted. I spent some time going through lists of Spanish wrecks and there were a few references to sword and firearm items among some inventories but no specific mention or detail. Obviously with the Spanish wrecks the focus is on treasure so the weapons were referred to as inconsequential and of little interest to interactions or information on these wrecks. Unfortunately the quest for 'treasure' soundly trumps any valuable archeological data which is held in these wreck sites in altogether too many cases. I would carefully qualify that I mean that generally as I know there are many serious divers out there who do recognize the importance of this detail, and act responsibly in matters accordingly.

Having mentioned that, I am trying to reach a friend who is one of those serious divers and was involved in dives on the Queen Annes Revenge some years ago. I am hoping he can help with data on some Spanish wrecks with his connections, but irs been some time since communicating with him.

I will point out that in the case of the QAR, the ship was abandoned by Blackbeard and he was actually 'downsizing' his forces as he was I believe intending to move toward a surrender in a pardon arrangement. It seems ironic that the events in which he was killed took place considering those circumstances. In any case, there was no reason for small arms of any kind to be left on the ship which was deliberately foundered, and the heavy cannons no longer needed for the smaller ship he transferred to, were of course left in place. I recall pestering my friend and asking 'where are the swords? you keep finding cannons!'.

The sword hilt which was subsequently found near the QAR wreck site in my opinion was collateral debris from a later period, despite the claims made in news items which allude to the possibility of actual connection to the QAR and even as far as suggesting the sword might have been Blackbeards! pure hyperbole! The hilt is of the fashionable court/hunting type with apertures for a chain guard, a feature which as far as I know was not present until after the time of Blackbeards demise. It is likely an item lost overboard in these heavily trafficked lanes at a later time.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 24th January 2012, 06:48 AM

Excellent information as always, my friend. Thank you for asking your archeology friend for what he might have found on Spanish wrecks. From the swept-hilt found on the Atocha, one can understand Gilkerson's comment on rapier-types being carried. It stands to reason that the conquestadors would have carried either broadswords or rapiers, both popular during the period.

-Treasure finds over-shadowing the 'less valuable' everyday items. You hit that one right on the head, Jim. It drives me crazy that when it comes to Spanish ships, all of the info on them concentrates on the gold, silver, precious artifacts and gems. I've even seen so-called professional articles do the same thing, where a little side note will say something like 'also found were daggers, sword hilts, cannonballs clustered together', etc, etc, with absolutely no detail. It's maddening!

-QAR dagger hilt find. Yes, we discussed this one before and I am in total agreement that it is later period and from a later wreck. Blackbeard's sword-

Right! There is a reason they call the Outer Banks the 'Graveyard of the Atlantic'. I'm sure if they went digging all along the shallows of Ocracoke Sound, they'd find even more unidentified wrecks. Used to know an acquaintance who dived out there and would find worm-eaten musket stocks, CW buckles, lead shot, cannon balls, etc.

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2012, 07:31 AM

Thank you Mark!
I hope I'll hear from him, but time goes by and you lose touch etc. Last time I talked with him was when he was diving on the 'Monitor' some years ago.

I have been going through everything I can find to see if perhaps maybe a ship name and record of find might have inventory details etc. It is interesting that one reference notes that Spanish galleons were intended for boarding combat with contingents of soldiers aboard and the high castles were ideal for suppressive fire. Other references refer to sailors on Spanish and Portuguese ships used the rapier through 17th into 18th century but that close quarters fighting rendered these ineffective.

These observations seem presumptive, especially that 'sailors' used rapiers aboard these ships, intimating that rank and file seamen would have used these expensive swords. A.V.B. Norman notes that it is unclear just when the 'cuphilt' came into use or its origins, but it seems they were well in use by mid 17th century. The fully developed hilt rapiers were in use of course in the previous century and well established with officers and nobles among the conquistadors. Aboard Spanish ships I would imagine that figures of rank and standing wore swords much as they did elsewhere without regard for special types or selection toward shipboard combat. The combat interaction was the business of ordinary seamen and as mentioned soldiers on board.

I think that probably in the case of soldiers, they would have had heavier bladed arming swords and seamen would have had access to stout, heavy bladed cutlass type hangers as you have noted in key storage on board for use as required. For the most part the utilitarian axes and knives etc. would have served as well.

As we agree, the lack of evidence of weapon types from the remains of the many Spanish wrecks found is due to the relative insignificance of them in comparison to the treasure found. Many of these weapons have not survived as the precious metals and jewels of course are heavy and non corrosive while the materials in weapons are not. Most of the weapon components found are either traces left with thier impressions in heavy concretion , or just pieces which have been sufficiently covered by protective silt or covering prohibiting oxygen contact, at least in my limited understanding of undersea archaeology.

I know what you mean about 'Graveyard of the Atlantic'. I used to find the works of Edward Rowe Snow fascinating! and his tales of all the shipwrecks and nautical lore. I really hope I can get this rig over there one day

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 24th January 2012, 02:11 PM

If you ever make it this way, Cap'n Jim, I'll have the grog waiting-

Have you ever been to Historic Beauford,NC? This has a documented property that actually belonged to William Teach and it's still standing. The NC Maritime Museum is there, as is an ancient cemetery where the privateer Otway Banks of War of 1812 fame is buried. Went there this summer and had a blast!

You bring up an excellent point concerning the contingent of soldiers on board. I was thinking of the later British navy with their marines, but of coarse this practice existed much earlier with the great galleons. It stands to reason that foot soldiers on these ships could certainly been armed with bilbos, as well as hangers. That being said (

), I won't let it go that some cup-hilted rapiers might have made it to sea, just as many other types of swords did per preference. I guess I'm thinking about the private merchant class ships and colonial Spanish ships as well, where the rules were not so tight.

M ELEY · 26th January 2012, 04:14 PM

Opps! Meant to say 'Otway Burns', not Banks (check him out on wikipedia). This fellow was quite an interesting and obscure character, but a true NC hero and privateer of the War of 1812 era...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th January 2012, 04:04 PM

Salaams all,
I was thumbing through some vague references to HMS Victory hoping to turn up a lead on this subject though to little avail except that I know that boarding parties(Royal Marines and seamen) used a basic cup hilt cutlass. It does appear that officers had a rather more decorative item more for badge of office and show . The only Portuguese blades I have seen in Oman are blade only items clearly spoils of war.. or fragmentary. The French were quite likely to have such weapons since there were many privateers in the Indian Ocean in the Napoleonic days. I continue to search.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando · 28th January 2012, 04:51 PM

Hi Mark,
I have been observing this most interesting thread, but i confess i fail to figure out what is the nuclear question, that is, i wonder why does it constitute a doubt whether or not cup hilt swords have been present in naval warfare.
Is it because you assume that, at such early period, sword styles were so selective that one or another was not fit to go aboard ?
I understand that, reading the period chronicles, is hard to find an author specifying whether the hero was using this or that sword style, letting his worries contemplate the use of weapons in a generic manner.
I was paging ASIA by João de Barros, narrating the Portuguese discoveries and their consequent encounters and battles, in this case by the 1500's. He often mentions the varied type of weapons used in the context, lances being the most often quoted weapon, as even such term being used to describe the number of men (rank) assigned to a mission ... like sending noble Dom John Doe ashore with 'X' lances to an exploit or a combat.
Then comes the crossbow, a strong resource embarked in military fleets. Halberds and 'montantes' (two hand swords) come next; i didn't read it this time, but i would have learned that such 'sophisticated' weapons were mainly used by trained nobles, namely the two handed sword, as they were in principle the ones that faced the combat front, the infants coming after.
The sword is mentioned in specific moments, like in a personal fight, a captain's challenge or an execution, or a ceremony. But obviously this was the weapon to have at hand, hanging from the waist as an alternative to the polearm or great sword failure or its uneffectiveness in restricted areas.
During the, say, three centuries of navigation, many types of swords were used, the cup hilt surely having its place aboard, as in firm land, in the late part of the period, that would be, from the XVII to the early XIX century (Napoleonic era), at this late stage with smaller bowls (cups) and even made of brass. The diminishing of the cup (bowl) dimensions was in purpose to reduce its discomfort when hanging from the waist/belt, specially when used by footmen. I believe this constraint gave larger space for the use of the terçado (hanger).
But being assured that cup hilt swords were largely used in the colonies, one can not exclude that they were hanging from embarked military forces belts.
Attached we can see a few sword styles that came across those years.
I am sorry if this ‘draught’ is not (even) close to the topic.

.

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2012, 11:30 PM

Great entry Nando, and excellent illustrations!
Actually for me I must confess I often wonder why more collectors/enthusiasts/ historians DONT ask these kinds of questions! and one of the things I truly admire about Mark is that he consistantly does! yay!

I have always been amazed at historic accounts and narratives with accurate details on uniforms being worn, and artillery, guns even down often to calibers etc. but when it comes to a sword mentioned it is either straight or curved. Then there are the misnomers like referring to a large straight backsword as a 'broadsword'; any hanger used aboard a ship becomes a 'cutlass'; and any heavy sheet or metal guard becomes a 'cuphilt. Then there are the flowery adventure or romance narratives using the much fabled 'scimitar' for any sabre used in oriental parlance.

The purpose of this discussion is mostly fact finding in trying to help us navigate through the treacherous waters of romanticized and artistic licence in much of the literature involving weapons used at sea. I always enjoyed for example the wonderful pirate illustrations of Pyle and Wyeth in which much of the appararel is fairly accurate, as are ships details and in some degree most of the firearms.....however, there is one illustration I can think of (of course being set in the period of the 'golden age' end 17th into 18th) where a bandana wearing pirare is brandishing a gleaming 'cup hilt' cutlass. The weapon portrayed is unfortunately a Civil War period brass sheet metal cutlass used by both Union and Confederate forces thus a century and a half later in period.

Likely there are many (too many) who would say, why does it matter? I suppose in the sense of the general effect of the painting of couse it really doesnt, but for many of us who take history extremely seriously...it would be tantamount to Napoleon arriving at Waterloo in a '57 Chevy

I think what Mark is trying to determine is not whether one weapon was more fit than another to be brought aboard a ship....I think we have all agreed that in many, if not most cases, virtually most types of edged weapons were likely aboard vessels at some point or another. Setting aside the obvious instance of captured, trophy or souvenier items we are wondering whether there was a propensity toward a certain type...in this case the cuphilt....being carried aboard vessels, in this case of course Spanish.

Much in the same way English officers carried usually all manner of court, dress and 'hunting' swords or hangers.....the Spanish officers I feel certain wore rapiers of varying types, the most favored by this time in the 17th century being the cuphilt. The precedent for rapiers worn aboard ship by officers was already established much earlier of course, and the one instance I can think of with at least part of a sword was the rapier from the Atocha (1622) which I believe was the work of Alonzo Perez.

Ibrahiim, thank you for joining us on this exploration! Excellent notes on the use of cutlasses by boarding parties and those disc hilt cutlasses were sturdy examples of a type favored from early 19th century well unto it. These types of sheet metal guards were in use I believe in France and Europe even earlier. The shellguard forms of these stout short bladed sabres were in use throughout Europe on both land and sea from late 16th century onward and well suited for seaboard use.
The obvious purpose and goal was to protect the hand which in close quarters combat was ever vulnerable, not only to further enable continued fighting, but for completion of important shipboard functions if hopefully enabled after the events.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 29th January 2012, 07:08 AM

Thank you, Fernando, for adding your very valuable information and perspective. Excellent pics which indeed add argument to the very question I had proposed. Jim expressed exactly the reason I was being such a 'stickler' when it comes to this subject. believe me, I'd love to say "here is a cargo-hold full of cuphilts, so leave it be"

. I appreciate the examples you have presented and feel they give a very strong argument towards cuphilt use.

Would this same argument hold true for so-called "Caribbean cuphilt rapiers" being used ship-board in the colonies? Again, I think they were. The only reason I asked the question was the lack of support from naval experts mentioned at the start of this thread.

Finally, what say you to the use of the bilbo at sea? It certainly followed on the heels of the two-handed broadswords of earlier eras that saw naval use, so...? I portray the one in my collection as having POTENTIALLY seen naval service.

Sounds like we pirates need to get together some time and come to a conclusion, aye? Pistols at 5 paces to decide the winner??

fernando · 12th February 2012, 04:12 PM

Hi Captain,
I confess i find it hard to spot literature on this theme of cuphilt swords having been aboard. The couple books i access are chronicles of an earlier period, that in which the Portuguese were more involved in sea battles, then with swords of earlier style. Other written works will most probably exist, although presently out of my reach, narrating the period in which they had mostly resumed their presence in Asia to fortifications in firm land, time when forcingly cuphilts were at hand.
Bilbos are further out of my reach, as that would fall into Spanish exclusive typology and not of Iberian spread like the cuphilt.
However i can't let this go without any (say) substance and, if you permit me, i will post a portrait of Portuguese King Dom Afonso VI, in an actual period work, where we can confirm the national role of cuphilt swords, with enough protagonism to be used by Monarchs in their ceremony attire.

.

M ELEY · 15th February 2012, 02:47 PM

Hello Fernando,

Excellent pic of the period with said sword. Its nice to know that there's some artwork out there supporting the connection. I am awaiting the arrival via inter-library loan of several books that might also substantiate the cup-hilt's presence on ships. Again, I don't doubt it nor challenge it, just looking for solid facts when someone asks to say "there is your proof" and be done with it.

This thread was also admittedly part selfish, as I have finally acquired a Caribbean cup-hilt rapier for my maritime collection! Thought I'd be 85 when I'd finally get one, but I'm 44 years early. Hope to post some pics soon, but have been extremely busy. Thanks for the post, though.

Mark

fernando · 15th February 2012, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... as I have finally acquired a Caribbean cup-hilt rapier for my maritime collection! Thought I'd be 85 when I'd finally get one, but I'm 44 years early. Hope to post some pics soon, but have been extremely busy....

Oh c'mon Mark... what are you waiting for ? don't tell us you will only show us the pictures when you are 85 ?

M ELEY · 15th February 2012, 11:21 PM

BTW, the sources I'm checking on are-

Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets, N. Wells
A Guide to the Artifacts of Colonial America, I. Hume
Artifacts of the Spanish Colonies of Florida and the Caribbean, Vol 2, K. Deagan

Hopefully, they may shed a little light?

Harold Peterson's 'Arms and Armor in Colonial America:1526-1783' is an excellent resource for weapons and shows both cup-hilts, hangers and smallswords recovered in the colonies. Being that the Jamestown settlement was right on the water, it stands to reason that at this early time period, those same swords found in the colony were undoubtedly carried by those ships on the shore.

M ELEY · 17th February 2012, 10:15 PM

'The Spanish Main:1492-1800' (Osprey Publishing)

A contemporary etching/portrait of Captain-General Pedro Menendez de Aviles, naval commander of the man-o-war that protected the Treasure Fleets and who also wiped out the French Protestants at Matanzas/founded St Augustine.

His portrait shows him with classic cup-hilt, extended side bars, olive-shaped pommel, wire-wrapped grip with 4 posts securing grip material. Finally! A little proof. Can't wait to get the other loaned books...

M ELEY · 7th April 2012, 05:00 AM

Hello all. Having read through numerous selected materials on the Spanish and Portuguese in the New World, I came across the obvious answer to my question which made me feel like a dunce that I hadn't seen it before.

Unlike the rest of the naval powers at the time (1650-1775 or so), these nations always carried a contingent of soldiers aboard their treasure ships (both the Portuguese and Spanish Treasure Fleets) to directly defend against piracy. Thus, these soldiers would have carried the standard arm of their military branch (bilbos and cuphilts). Yes, I know that Sir Walter Raleigh and the like were "soldier/sailors", but for the most part, the Navy typically didn't have other branches of the military on their ships. It wasn't until the Brits started using the Royal Marines in the high tops (a practice carried over to the U.S.) that we see other military forces being 'routinely' utilized.

Jim McDougall · 7th April 2012, 04:23 PM

Hi Mark,
Good work on that research! Your threads are always fascinating because of course of your field of study, maritime weapons, which leads into the prime subjects of piracy, shipwrecks, Spanish treasure fleets.....and all adventure on the seas and colonies.
Actually the question about the use of the cuphilt at sea was, like the use of virtually any edged weapons at sea, a well placed thought but understandably tricky in categorizing broadly.
Naturally your perspective was on what was used by the officers and crews that manned the ships, but the presence of other than seagoing crew would be a factor relatively outside that denominator, so no need for the pointed hat!!

Thanks for keeping this thread going, and for always sharing the updates on your ever intriguing research!!!
Speaking of ongoing, we are about to get out of drydock here in Texas and this years expedition is planned eastward into Florida, and hopefully Carolina bound after that! Instead of barnacles, we are removing tumbleweeds from our vessel, the good ship Winnebago

Time to get out the shipwreck materials, yay!

All the best,
Jim
Jim

fernando · 7th April 2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Instead of barnacles, we are removing tumbleweeds from our vessel, the good ship Winnebago

Time to get out the shipwreck materials, yay! ...

.

fernando · 7th April 2012, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... I came across the obvious answer to my question which made me feel like a dunce that I hadn't seen it before.

...

Ah, my friend ... the egg of Columbus

M ELEY · 8th April 2012, 12:22 AM

Hello Jim,
Great to hear from you as always. Yeah! The HMS Winnebago has set sail! Batten the hatches and full ahead! If you make it to the NC coast, Jim, you need to visit historic Beaufort, NC (Spanish horses dating to the Conquestadores running along the Shackleford Banks, the Old Graveyard with numerous maritime stories/ghost tales, the 3 maritime museums on the coast, Fort Macon at Emerald Isle, Blackbeard's house in Beaufort, historic Bath (where Blackbeard lived), Okracoke Island (Blackbeard's final resting place and where Steede Bonnet was captured), Blackbeard exhibit for the QAR...did I mention Blackbeard?? ANyway, you could drop by if you are closer to the mountains, my friend!

Hello Fernando,
Can I get that egg fried with a side of bacon?

P.S. Nice pics of the Book Mobile!

22nd January 2012, 05:35 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Spanish cup-hilts and bilbos for naval use? I know we have touched on this subject time and again, but I'm always curious as to other's opinions. AS a naval collector, I've always been drawn to the Spanish, Portuguese and Span colonial rapiers and broadswords of the period and their possible use at sea. Naval weapons used prior to the mid-18th century in all nations as far as specific patterns remains speculative. -Consulting the experts, Rankin and Gilkerson do not touch upon these countries in their research. Neither does Annis. -May's monumental two volume series mentions all about the naval power of Spain and Portugal, but mentions only the use of brass-hilted small-swords (without the colichemard blades preferred by other nval powers) being carried in the early/mid-18th centuries. As small-swords were typically a sign of rank on board ships, I am assuming these were strictly officer's swords and not what the common man would have access to in boarding/battle. -Brinckerhoff deftly defines the forms of colonial weapons in his work, but goes on to say that colonial cup hilt rapiers were carried by foot-soldiers while the broadsword/bilbo types were carried by mounted troops. Again, no mention of what the greatest naval power in the world was carrying during their conquests. Where is the documentation of what they had access to?? His book goes on to show early 19th century Spanish cutlasses that copied both the French m1801/1833 pattern as well as brass-hilted small hangers, but this is past the time period of Spanish naval power. Interestingly, the classic short espada with it's side guard would have made an ideal sea weapon, resembling the hangers popular with other naval powers of the time period. But in this, Brinckerhoff is firm; espada were used by the rancheros and horsemen of the plains as a weapon and machete-tool. -This lead me to automatically speculate that without any other contender, the side-arm swords of the Spanish and Portuguese armadas had to be cup-hilt rapiers. Yet, Norman says in his book that the evidence of the time shows that the rapier was a civilian weapon only! Now this might not be true for privateers/pirates and the Spanish colonial provinces (Caribbean), but is so, what weapon is left?? I am told the Knights of Malta used cup-hilts on thier barges for raids, but have yet to find more proof. -Naval weapons prior to the mid-18th century was an open free-for-all. There are documented weapons such as artillery swords, hangers, small swords, Scottish baskethilts, infantry swords, walloons, so-called Sinclaire sabers, etc, going to sea. With this in mond, I am still convinced that the typical sailor of the time-period, regardless of country, took with him what he knew and felt comfortable with. One of the main reasons Spanish sword forms lasted as long as they did (the bilbo, double guard configuration) was because of tradition and familiarity. Long story short (my thesis- ):I do believe cup-hilts went to sea, but it would be nice if some better proof could be produced. I am going to do more research on portraits of the time period, likewise shipwreck research on recovered artifacts next to see if this sheds any light. In the meantime, how do you weigh in???

24th January 2012, 02:11 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	If you ever make it this way, Cap'n Jim, I'll have the grog waiting- Have you ever been to Historic Beauford,NC? This has a documented property that actually belonged to William Teach and it's still standing. The NC Maritime Museum is there, as is an ancient cemetery where the privateer Otway Banks of War of 1812 fame is buried. Went there this summer and had a blast! You bring up an excellent point concerning the contingent of soldiers on board. I was thinking of the later British navy with their marines, but of coarse this practice existed much earlier with the great galleons. It stands to reason that foot soldiers on these ships could certainly been armed with bilbos, as well as hangers. That being said ( ), I won't let it go that some cup-hilted rapiers might have made it to sea, just as many other types of swords did per preference. I guess I'm thinking about the private merchant class ships and colonial Spanish ships as well, where the rules were not so tight. Last edited by M ELEY; 24th January 2012 at 02:21 PM.

28th January 2012, 04:51 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Mark, I have been observing this most interesting thread, but i confess i fail to figure out what is the nuclear question, that is, i wonder why does it constitute a doubt whether or not cup hilt swords have been present in naval warfare. Is it because you assume that, at such early period, sword styles were so selective that one or another was not fit to go aboard ? I understand that, reading the period chronicles, is hard to find an author specifying whether the hero was using this or that sword style, letting his worries contemplate the use of weapons in a generic manner. I was paging ASIA by João de Barros, narrating the Portuguese discoveries and their consequent encounters and battles, in this case by the 1500's. He often mentions the varied type of weapons used in the context, lances being the most often quoted weapon, as even such term being used to describe the number of men (rank) assigned to a mission ... like sending noble Dom John Doe ashore with 'X' lances to an exploit or a combat. Then comes the crossbow, a strong resource embarked in military fleets. Halberds and 'montantes' (two hand swords) come next; i didn't read it this time, but i would have learned that such 'sophisticated' weapons were mainly used by trained nobles, namely the two handed sword, as they were in principle the ones that faced the combat front, the infants coming after. The sword is mentioned in specific moments, like in a personal fight, a captain's challenge or an execution, or a ceremony. But obviously this was the weapon to have at hand, hanging from the waist as an alternative to the polearm or great sword failure or its uneffectiveness in restricted areas. During the, say, three centuries of navigation, many types of swords were used, the cup hilt surely having its place aboard, as in firm land, in the late part of the period, that would be, from the XVII to the early XIX century (Napoleonic era), at this late stage with smaller bowls (cups) and even made of brass. The diminishing of the cup (bowl) dimensions was in purpose to reduce its discomfort when hanging from the waist/belt, specially when used by footmen. I believe this constraint gave larger space for the use of the terçado (hanger). But being assured that cup hilt swords were largely used in the colonies, one can not exclude that they were hanging from embarked military forces belts. Attached we can see a few sword styles that came across those years. I am sorry if this ‘draught’ is not (even) close to the topic. . Attached Images

12th February 2012, 04:12 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Captain, I confess i find it hard to spot literature on this theme of cuphilt swords having been aboard. The couple books i access are chronicles of an earlier period, that in which the Portuguese were more involved in sea battles, then with swords of earlier style. Other written works will most probably exist, although presently out of my reach, narrating the period in which they had mostly resumed their presence in Asia to fortifications in firm land, time when forcingly cuphilts were at hand. Bilbos are further out of my reach, as that would fall into Spanish exclusive typology and not of Iberian spread like the cuphilt. However i can't let this go without any (say) substance and, if you permit me, i will post a portrait of Portuguese King Dom Afonso VI, in an actual period work, where we can confirm the national role of cuphilt swords, with enough protagonism to be used by Monarchs in their ceremony attire. . Attached Images

15th February 2012, 11:21 PM	#17
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	BTW, the sources I'm checking on are- Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets, N. Wells A Guide to the Artifacts of Colonial America, I. Hume Artifacts of the Spanish Colonies of Florida and the Caribbean, Vol 2, K. Deagan Hopefully, they may shed a little light? Harold Peterson's 'Arms and Armor in Colonial America:1526-1783' is an excellent resource for weapons and shows both cup-hilts, hangers and smallswords recovered in the colonies. Being that the Jamestown settlement was right on the water, it stands to reason that at this early time period, those same swords found in the colony were undoubtedly carried by those ships on the shore. Last edited by M ELEY; 16th February 2012 at 05:12 AM.

22nd January 2012, 10:14 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Yay! an essay question This is really a great topic Mark, and I know we've touched on it many times through the years, but it remains as elusive as ever as far as tangible proof, whether swords such as the baskethilt and the cuphilt actually were used at sea. I remember quite a few years back trying to find proof on the use of the Scottish baskethilt at sea, and no definitive results forthcoming even after contacting the National Maritime Museum and other authorities with the suggestion firmly in place, but virtually unprovable forensically. I think with that, as you recall, the closest to proof was the account of the death of Blackbeard in which the fatal blow was struck by a Highlander among Maynards men 'using his broadsword'. We know that Maynards forces were assembled from men from the Carolinas joining his naval force, and that Highlanders with broadswords were well represented in those regions in those times from those immigrating from Scotland. However, this is perhaps the closest actual account of a Highland broadsword (baskethilt) used aboard a ship. Considering the size of these vessels I suppose this would suggest that in theory, these full sized weapons would be at least in degree feasible in actual combative situations. The fact that Scottish baskethilts were typically already japanned (painted black) or russeted to prevent rust in the damp Highlands may have also added to the favor of these type weapons for maritime use. Annis ("Naval Swords:, p.10) also notes "...the Scottish broadsword was far from being unknown at sea". Again, this assertion is physically unsubstantiated. Getting to the actual use of swords aboard ships, it is known of course that there were no real regulations or standards as to what edged weapons may have been used on vessels, and obviously whatever modicum of regulation might exist on naval vessels would have no bearing on merchant ships. On pirate or privateers this would be emphatically the case. Gilkerson does note (p.108) that in the Spanish navy the long bladed rapier of the soldier was the commonest shipboard fighting blade throughout the 18th into the 19th c. This as we know is broadly assumed, and as both cuphilts with 'arming' blades and bilbos were used primarly by infantry and dismounted troops in colonial New Spain, it would be difficult to prove as there are no distinctive naval markings known (the fouled anchor only began in England about pre American Revolution). As far as I know there are no paintings or illustrations reflecting sea going weaponry from Spain from these times. We do know that while infantry and some cavalry weapons were chosen randomly, but by late in the 18th century the smallsword had become regulation for Spanish naval officers in accord with French, British and American practice of the times (Annis p.10, "Naval Swords"). As far as examples being found on shipwrecks, which would of course be ideal, I am unaware of any examples found aboard Spanish wrecks of cuphilts. As for the baskethilt, there is an example which was found on the wreck of the English "Sea Venture" off the Bahamas, which was I believe late 16th century and referenced in several articles. This was of course an early English type baskethilt, but again goes to use of the form on board. This of course may have been other than crew and simply belonging to someone aboard being transported. As Annis suggests (op.cit. p.10) many of the swords worn by officers and officials aboard ships may have been more for fashion or wear on ceremonial occasion than actual combat weapons. In the case of most Spanish wrecks, obviously the attention is primarily toward the valuable cargo, but as far as I know no cuphilts have ever been found. There was a galleon found off Manila which surprisingly had aboard a good number of Japanese swords, but these seem to have been part of a cargo rather than in use on board by Samurai who did apparantly ally with the Spanish in some circumstances back in those early times (I forget the details). I know of a group of rapier blades found on a Spanish wreck off Panama and again these were cargo apparantly bound for the colonies for refurbishing the rapiers traditionally still in service there. It will be good to continue the search just the same, and frankly any evidence of cuphilts or for that matter other items is usually foreshadowed by the attention to valuables where Spanish ships are involved. Well thats my entry, I hope others will join too !!! Great topic!!!!! All the best, Jim

23rd January 2012, 02:00 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Jim and great to hear from you! I had sent you a PM awhile back to see how you were doing. I was hoping you would come in on this. I hope others might as well. Just a few comments on your excellent and thorough essay- -Excellent point about Maynard's crew. I hadn't thought of it in that way. Of course some of his crew would have been local, and considering that there is a strong Scot population in NC. Likewise, information on that Bahamas wreck with a broadsword type is most interesting. I'll look into that one... -Gilkerson's comment-Wow, totally missed that one in my copy. Must have been hurrying as always. That single statement might be all we have to grasp at for now, but it does lend to the argument that said swords did go to sea. -No naval markings on said swords to prove naval provenance. This is so typical that I don't even flinch to hear it anymore. For every sword with a naval mark, it would seem that there were far more unmarked. Given that so many generic types were produced for both the army and navy in later centuries, it stands to reason that this practice came from previous centuries. Remember that lion-pommel officer's sword I posted recently? Carried by officers of both the army and navy. I likewise have found that with the merchant fleets and private purchase of weapons, you had unmarked/non-govt issue types. -Bummer about the shipwrecks not yielding any examples of cup-hilt, but the sailors had to have carried something. It is one thing if other rusted relics of other sword types had been found, but it sounds like no edged weapons have been recovered. The Spanish were always being set upon by pirates. They were always facing the boarding parties of the English and Dutch. Likewise, when they reached their destination, the Portuguese and Spanish sent out scouting parties of soldiers, rounded up slaves, etc. There had to be some type of weapon carried. Perhaps some will turn up on a well-preserved wreck one of these days...

23rd January 2012, 04:06 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Having done some research myself on shipwrecks, it has become very apparent that very few sword parts from wrecks of ANY nationality survive. The Queen Anne's Revenge has yielded only one sword guard. The Whydah likewise is scant. The Atocha did have one rapier turn up, but it was a swept-hilt vs the cup-hilt I'm inquiring about. Having done some searches and learning about what survives these wrecks, it became apparent why few survive (other than the obvious corrosion of iron items). So far, the blades recovered from these wrecks have been, as Jim pointed out, trade items in the hold. With underwater archaeology, it was become known that delicate items, such as wood-stocked guns, daggers, swords, cloth, etc, that has survived had been stored in the hold. When many of these ships sunk, the hold was rapidly buried under the sand, with many of the said artifacts protected. Arms that would have been worn by the crew were not so protected. Yes, I know most crews didn't go walking around the ship armed, but they would have been readily available (at a weapons station on deck, mounted to a mast, in a storage barrel for boarders, etc. Likewise, surviving members who were so armed would have escaped with their weapons (survival after a shipwreck on a strange coast would have depended on it). Soooo...perhaps we'll never be sure if the Spanish and Portuguese carried these sword types to sea.

23rd January 2012, 07:11 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark, As always, good points and well placed research notes. As far as I know there have been a few cases of sword components found on some English wrecks associated with pirates, notably as mentioned the Whydah and the Henrietta Marie as well. These were of course the hunting hanger type weapons and were severely encrusted. I spent some time going through lists of Spanish wrecks and there were a few references to sword and firearm items among some inventories but no specific mention or detail. Obviously with the Spanish wrecks the focus is on treasure so the weapons were referred to as inconsequential and of little interest to interactions or information on these wrecks. Unfortunately the quest for 'treasure' soundly trumps any valuable archeological data which is held in these wreck sites in altogether too many cases. I would carefully qualify that I mean that generally as I know there are many serious divers out there who do recognize the importance of this detail, and act responsibly in matters accordingly. Having mentioned that, I am trying to reach a friend who is one of those serious divers and was involved in dives on the Queen Annes Revenge some years ago. I am hoping he can help with data on some Spanish wrecks with his connections, but irs been some time since communicating with him. I will point out that in the case of the QAR, the ship was abandoned by Blackbeard and he was actually 'downsizing' his forces as he was I believe intending to move toward a surrender in a pardon arrangement. It seems ironic that the events in which he was killed took place considering those circumstances. In any case, there was no reason for small arms of any kind to be left on the ship which was deliberately foundered, and the heavy cannons no longer needed for the smaller ship he transferred to, were of course left in place. I recall pestering my friend and asking 'where are the swords? you keep finding cannons!'. The sword hilt which was subsequently found near the QAR wreck site in my opinion was collateral debris from a later period, despite the claims made in news items which allude to the possibility of actual connection to the QAR and even as far as suggesting the sword might have been Blackbeards! pure hyperbole! The hilt is of the fashionable court/hunting type with apertures for a chain guard, a feature which as far as I know was not present until after the time of Blackbeards demise. It is likely an item lost overboard in these heavily trafficked lanes at a later time. All the best, Jim

24th January 2012, 06:48 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Excellent information as always, my friend. Thank you for asking your archeology friend for what he might have found on Spanish wrecks. From the swept-hilt found on the Atocha, one can understand Gilkerson's comment on rapier-types being carried. It stands to reason that the conquestadors would have carried either broadswords or rapiers, both popular during the period. -Treasure finds over-shadowing the 'less valuable' everyday items. You hit that one right on the head, Jim. It drives me crazy that when it comes to Spanish ships, all of the info on them concentrates on the gold, silver, precious artifacts and gems. I've even seen so-called professional articles do the same thing, where a little side note will say something like 'also found were daggers, sword hilts, cannonballs clustered together', etc, etc, with absolutely no detail. It's maddening! -QAR dagger hilt find. Yes, we discussed this one before and I am in total agreement that it is later period and from a later wreck. Blackbeard's sword- Right! There is a reason they call the Outer Banks the 'Graveyard of the Atlantic'. I'm sure if they went digging all along the shallows of Ocracoke Sound, they'd find even more unidentified wrecks. Used to know an acquaintance who dived out there and would find worm-eaten musket stocks, CW buckles, lead shot, cannon balls, etc.

24th January 2012, 07:31 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you Mark! I hope I'll hear from him, but time goes by and you lose touch etc. Last time I talked with him was when he was diving on the 'Monitor' some years ago. I have been going through everything I can find to see if perhaps maybe a ship name and record of find might have inventory details etc. It is interesting that one reference notes that Spanish galleons were intended for boarding combat with contingents of soldiers aboard and the high castles were ideal for suppressive fire. Other references refer to sailors on Spanish and Portuguese ships used the rapier through 17th into 18th century but that close quarters fighting rendered these ineffective. These observations seem presumptive, especially that 'sailors' used rapiers aboard these ships, intimating that rank and file seamen would have used these expensive swords. A.V.B. Norman notes that it is unclear just when the 'cuphilt' came into use or its origins, but it seems they were well in use by mid 17th century. The fully developed hilt rapiers were in use of course in the previous century and well established with officers and nobles among the conquistadors. Aboard Spanish ships I would imagine that figures of rank and standing wore swords much as they did elsewhere without regard for special types or selection toward shipboard combat. The combat interaction was the business of ordinary seamen and as mentioned soldiers on board. I think that probably in the case of soldiers, they would have had heavier bladed arming swords and seamen would have had access to stout, heavy bladed cutlass type hangers as you have noted in key storage on board for use as required. For the most part the utilitarian axes and knives etc. would have served as well. As we agree, the lack of evidence of weapon types from the remains of the many Spanish wrecks found is due to the relative insignificance of them in comparison to the treasure found. Many of these weapons have not survived as the precious metals and jewels of course are heavy and non corrosive while the materials in weapons are not. Most of the weapon components found are either traces left with thier impressions in heavy concretion , or just pieces which have been sufficiently covered by protective silt or covering prohibiting oxygen contact, at least in my limited understanding of undersea archaeology. I know what you mean about 'Graveyard of the Atlantic'. I used to find the works of Edward Rowe Snow fascinating! and his tales of all the shipwrecks and nautical lore. I really hope I can get this rig over there one day All the best, Jim

26th January 2012, 04:14 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Opps! Meant to say 'Otway Burns', not Banks (check him out on wikipedia). This fellow was quite an interesting and obscure character, but a true NC hero and privateer of the War of 1812 era...

27th January 2012, 04:04 PM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all, I was thumbing through some vague references to HMS Victory hoping to turn up a lead on this subject though to little avail except that I know that boarding parties(Royal Marines and seamen) used a basic cup hilt cutlass. It does appear that officers had a rather more decorative item more for badge of office and show . The only Portuguese blades I have seen in Oman are blade only items clearly spoils of war.. or fragmentary. The French were quite likely to have such weapons since there were many privateers in the Indian Ocean in the Napoleonic days. I continue to search. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

28th January 2012, 11:30 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Great entry Nando, and excellent illustrations! Actually for me I must confess I often wonder why more collectors/enthusiasts/ historians DONT ask these kinds of questions! and one of the things I truly admire about Mark is that he consistantly does! yay! I have always been amazed at historic accounts and narratives with accurate details on uniforms being worn, and artillery, guns even down often to calibers etc. but when it comes to a sword mentioned it is either straight or curved. Then there are the misnomers like referring to a large straight backsword as a 'broadsword'; any hanger used aboard a ship becomes a 'cutlass'; and any heavy sheet or metal guard becomes a 'cuphilt. Then there are the flowery adventure or romance narratives using the much fabled 'scimitar' for any sabre used in oriental parlance. The purpose of this discussion is mostly fact finding in trying to help us navigate through the treacherous waters of romanticized and artistic licence in much of the literature involving weapons used at sea. I always enjoyed for example the wonderful pirate illustrations of Pyle and Wyeth in which much of the appararel is fairly accurate, as are ships details and in some degree most of the firearms.....however, there is one illustration I can think of (of course being set in the period of the 'golden age' end 17th into 18th) where a bandana wearing pirare is brandishing a gleaming 'cup hilt' cutlass. The weapon portrayed is unfortunately a Civil War period brass sheet metal cutlass used by both Union and Confederate forces thus a century and a half later in period. Likely there are many (too many) who would say, why does it matter? I suppose in the sense of the general effect of the painting of couse it really doesnt, but for many of us who take history extremely seriously...it would be tantamount to Napoleon arriving at Waterloo in a '57 Chevy I think what Mark is trying to determine is not whether one weapon was more fit than another to be brought aboard a ship....I think we have all agreed that in many, if not most cases, virtually most types of edged weapons were likely aboard vessels at some point or another. Setting aside the obvious instance of captured, trophy or souvenier items we are wondering whether there was a propensity toward a certain type...in this case the cuphilt....being carried aboard vessels, in this case of course Spanish. Much in the same way English officers carried usually all manner of court, dress and 'hunting' swords or hangers.....the Spanish officers I feel certain wore rapiers of varying types, the most favored by this time in the 17th century being the cuphilt. The precedent for rapiers worn aboard ship by officers was already established much earlier of course, and the one instance I can think of with at least part of a sword was the rapier from the Atocha (1622) which I believe was the work of Alonzo Perez. Ibrahiim, thank you for joining us on this exploration! Excellent notes on the use of cutlasses by boarding parties and those disc hilt cutlasses were sturdy examples of a type favored from early 19th century well unto it. These types of sheet metal guards were in use I believe in France and Europe even earlier. The shellguard forms of these stout short bladed sabres were in use throughout Europe on both land and sea from late 16th century onward and well suited for seaboard use. The obvious purpose and goal was to protect the hand which in close quarters combat was ever vulnerable, not only to further enable continued fighting, but for completion of important shipboard functions if hopefully enabled after the events. All the best, Jim

29th January 2012, 07:08 AM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thank you, Fernando, for adding your very valuable information and perspective. Excellent pics which indeed add argument to the very question I had proposed. Jim expressed exactly the reason I was being such a 'stickler' when it comes to this subject. believe me, I'd love to say "here is a cargo-hold full of cuphilts, so leave it be" . I appreciate the examples you have presented and feel they give a very strong argument towards cuphilt use. Would this same argument hold true for so-called "Caribbean cuphilt rapiers" being used ship-board in the colonies? Again, I think they were. The only reason I asked the question was the lack of support from naval experts mentioned at the start of this thread. Finally, what say you to the use of the bilbo at sea? It certainly followed on the heels of the two-handed broadswords of earlier eras that saw naval use, so...? I portray the one in my collection as having POTENTIALLY seen naval service. Sounds like we pirates need to get together some time and come to a conclusion, aye? Pistols at 5 paces to decide the winner??

15th February 2012, 02:47 PM	#15
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Fernando, Excellent pic of the period with said sword. Its nice to know that there's some artwork out there supporting the connection. I am awaiting the arrival via inter-library loan of several books that might also substantiate the cup-hilt's presence on ships. Again, I don't doubt it nor challenge it, just looking for solid facts when someone asks to say "there is your proof" and be done with it. This thread was also admittedly part selfish, as I have finally acquired a Caribbean cup-hilt rapier for my maritime collection! Thought I'd be 85 when I'd finally get one, but I'm 44 years early. Hope to post some pics soon, but have been extremely busy. Thanks for the post, though. Mark

17th February 2012, 10:15 PM	#18
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Pay-dirt! 'The Spanish Main:1492-1800' (Osprey Publishing) A contemporary etching/portrait of Captain-General Pedro Menendez de Aviles, naval commander of the man-o-war that protected the Treasure Fleets and who also wiped out the French Protestants at Matanzas/founded St Augustine. His portrait shows him with classic cup-hilt, extended side bars, olive-shaped pommel, wire-wrapped grip with 4 posts securing grip material. Finally! A little proof. Can't wait to get the other loaned books...

7th April 2012, 05:00 AM	#19
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello all. Having read through numerous selected materials on the Spanish and Portuguese in the New World, I came across the obvious answer to my question which made me feel like a dunce that I hadn't seen it before. Unlike the rest of the naval powers at the time (1650-1775 or so), these nations always carried a contingent of soldiers aboard their treasure ships (both the Portuguese and Spanish Treasure Fleets) to directly defend against piracy. Thus, these soldiers would have carried the standard arm of their military branch (bilbos and cuphilts). Yes, I know that Sir Walter Raleigh and the like were "soldier/sailors", but for the most part, the Navy typically didn't have other branches of the military on their ships. It wasn't until the Brits started using the Royal Marines in the high tops (a practice carried over to the U.S.) that we see other military forces being 'routinely' utilized.

7th April 2012, 04:23 PM	#20
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark, Good work on that research! Your threads are always fascinating because of course of your field of study, maritime weapons, which leads into the prime subjects of piracy, shipwrecks, Spanish treasure fleets.....and all adventure on the seas and colonies. Actually the question about the use of the cuphilt at sea was, like the use of virtually any edged weapons at sea, a well placed thought but understandably tricky in categorizing broadly. Naturally your perspective was on what was used by the officers and crews that manned the ships, but the presence of other than seagoing crew would be a factor relatively outside that denominator, so no need for the pointed hat!! Thanks for keeping this thread going, and for always sharing the updates on your ever intriguing research!!! Speaking of ongoing, we are about to get out of drydock here in Texas and this years expedition is planned eastward into Florida, and hopefully Carolina bound after that! Instead of barnacles, we are removing tumbleweeds from our vessel, the good ship Winnebago Time to get out the shipwreck materials, yay! All the best, Jim Jim

8th April 2012, 12:22 AM	#23
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Jim, Great to hear from you as always. Yeah! The HMS Winnebago has set sail! Batten the hatches and full ahead! If you make it to the NC coast, Jim, you need to visit historic Beaufort, NC (Spanish horses dating to the Conquestadores running along the Shackleford Banks, the Old Graveyard with numerous maritime stories/ghost tales, the 3 maritime museums on the coast, Fort Macon at Emerald Isle, Blackbeard's house in Beaufort, historic Bath (where Blackbeard lived), Okracoke Island (Blackbeard's final resting place and where Steede Bonnet was captured), Blackbeard exhibit for the QAR...did I mention Blackbeard?? ANyway, you could drop by if you are closer to the mountains, my friend! Hello Fernando, Can I get that egg fried with a side of bacon? P.S. Nice pics of the Book Mobile!