Extra button on wheellocks

johnhb · 25th December 2011, 07:52 PM

For my first post I would like to raise a question about the functioning of early wheellock mechanism.

Reference, the excellent paper, "What Can be Learned from the Landeszeughaus Wheellock Collection in Graz, Austria", Robert E. Brooker. < http://asoac.org/bulletins/95_brooker_graz.pdf>

Brooker shows a number of early locks, RG2, 3, 4, 5, and 285 where there is a button on the face of the lockplate, passing through the "V" of the mainspring and threaded into the sear. It appears as though pushing on the button will engage the sear with the hole in the wheel. It seems that winding would be a little clumsy since as the spanner was cranked the button would need to be pressed to lock the wheel in the wound position. In the top view of RG3 locks a leaf spring seems to be placed to apply a force to the sear but it is not clear from the illustrations as to which way the spring operates - to latch or unlatch the sear.

Why did the early (roughly pre 1560) have this arrangement?

Starting with RG9 the "new" design locks with safety catch no longer have the button.

Does anyone know the history of the design of these locks in more detail?

Best Regards,

Johnhb

Fernando K · 28th December 2011, 10:38 PM

Hola

Creo interpretar que te refieres al resorte que mueve al fiador secundario (second sear) que hace que el segundo fiador (sear second) trabe o bloquee al fiador primario (primary sear) cuando el extremo de este se ha introducido en el orificio en la rueda.
El sistema siguiente fué de un sistema que tenía un resorte doble o de doble acción, que movía automáticamente los dos fiadores (sear), que hacían que se bloqueara la rueda.
En cuanto a la antiguedad del sistema, otros miembros de este foro, con mas autordad ue la mía, te podran ayudar.

Afectuosamente desde Argentina, Fernando

Hello

I interpret that you mean the spring that moves the secondary sear (sear second) which makes the second sear (sear second) lock or block the primary guarantor (primary sear) when the end of this has been introduced into the hole in the wheel .
The following system was a system that had a twin or double spring action, which automatically moved two catches (SEAR), which made the wheel will lock.
Regarding the old system, other members of this forum, with more autordad ue mine, you can help.

Sincerely from Argentina, Fernando

Matchlock · 29th December 2011, 06:43 PM

Hi,

The principle of the press button, wich is normally only known from wheellocks of the 1550's in the Graz armory, is to tighten the pressure on the sear when the wheel is spanned. The actual sear spring was often too weak for a safe contact between the sear rest and the full strength of the wheel spring. With the button pressed and in activated position, the trigger had to be pulled with significantly higher force.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 29th December 2011, 10:17 PM

Welcome to the forum johnhb,
I expect you are satisfied with the answers to your question ... schematic drawings included

Fernando K · 30th December 2011, 12:53 PM

Hola.
Ante todo, aclarar que mi intención no es iniciar una polémica con las ideas vertidas en los post anteriores, sino establecer el funcionamiento de la llave de rueda (wheellock)....
Primero: La palanca de impulsar (button press) existe no solo en los ejemplares en la armeria de Graz, sino también en numerosos ejemplares de "tschinke". Justamente, en el thread reciente en este foro, se han adjuntado imágenes de "tschinke" que lo poseen.
Segundo: El ejemplar elegido por JOHNHB para su interrogatorio, RG3 del trabajo de Brooker citado, no muestra ningún resorte actuando sobre el primer fiador (primary sear)
Tercero: Para que el resorte del primer fiador (primary sear) como aparece en el diseño adjuntado por Matchlock agregue mas fuerza al contacto entre los dos fiadores (sear), el resorte tendría que actuar acercando al extremo del primer fiador (primary sear) a la cara interna de la platina(plate) y no alejándolo, como aparece representado

Afectuosamente. Fernando KHello.
First, to clarify that my intention is not to start a debate with the ideas expressed in previous posts, but to establish the operation of the lug wrench (wheellock )....
First, the drive lever (button press) exists not only in the specimens in the armory in Graz, but numerous copies of "tschinke." Precisely, in the recent thread on this forum, images have been attached "tschinke" who possess it.
Second, the example chosen by JOHNHB for questioning RG3 Brooker's work cited shows no spring acting on the first latch (primary sear)
Third: For the first detent spring (primary sear) as shown in the attached design by Matchlock add more force to the contact between the two guarantors (SEAR), the spring would have to move closer to the end of the first latch (primary sear) to the inside of the plate (plate) and away, as represented

Affectionately. Fernando K

johnhb · 1st January 2012, 07:58 PM

Thank you to Fernando K, Fernando and Matchlock for your replies.

Here is a later (about 1580?) wheellock which has the sear engagement button, missing its head. The button is pushed out by a spring so it disengages the sear from the wheel. This requires that the button be pushed with one hand as the wheel is wound with the other. Must have been inconvenient on horseback!

The numbers on the bottom edge seem odd - perhaps they date from when it was made?

Best Regards,

Johnhb

Matchlock · 2nd January 2012, 04:24 PM

Hi Johnhb,

This lock is almost certainly of Augsburg manufacture, ca. 1590-1600.

Best,
Michael

Fernando K · 3rd January 2012, 01:35 PM

Hola, Johnhb:

Para terminar, permitame expresar lo que un principio de honestidad intelectual y de respeto a todos los miembros de este foro me obliga a exponer:
El primer fiador (primary sear) no precisa ningún resorte para moverse: cuando él orificio de la rueda ha llegado a su lugar, la presión que se ha ejercido sobre el botón hace que el extremos del primer fiador (primary sear) se le introduzca, leevantando el otro extremo y permitiendo que el segundo fiador (second sear) se le meta debajo y bloquee todo el mecanismo.
Es seguramente, lo que pasa en el ejemplar de su post Nº 7, pese a sus palabras, y lo que claramente se vé en el RG3 del trabajo de Booker.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, Johnhb:

In closing, let me say what a principle of intellectual honesty and respect for all members of this forum compels me to state:
The first latch (primary sear) requires no spring to move: when the opening of the conference is over, the pressure has been exerted on the button causes the ends of the first latch (primary sear) was introduced, leevantando the other end and allowing the second latch (second sear) is below target and block the entire mechanism.
It is surely what happens in the copy of his post No. 7, despite his words, and what clearly is seen in the work of Booker RG3.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Matchlock · 3rd January 2012, 08:04 PM

Hi Johnhb,

For better understanding I inverted your first image of the Augsburg wheel-lock to show its actual view.

m

Fernando K · 4th January 2012, 01:51 PM

Hola a todos:

Si se invierte la fotografía, la cifra 1588 queda invertida: me parece que era una llave (lock) para la izquierda....Además, me parece que arriba de la cifra 1588 hay una inscripción, que no puedo descifrar.....

Afectuosamente, Fernando K

Hello all,

Reversing the picture, the 1588 figure is reversed: I think it was a key (lock) to the left .... I also think that above the 1588 figure is an inscription that I can not figure out .... .

Sincerely, Fernando K

Matchlock · 4th January 2012, 02:47 PM

Hi Fernando K.,

Thank you for remarking that. So it is left-hand lock which is very unusual, and I should not have inverted the image.

The number 1588 and the other cyphers are certainly old inventory nos.

Best,
Michael

Fernando K · 4th January 2012, 10:33 PM

Hola, JOHNNB

Por favor, tu que tienes acceso a la pieza, puedes reproducir la inscripción?

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, JOHNNB

Please, you who have access to the piece, can you reproduce the inscription?

Affectionately. Fernando K

.

johnhb · 5th January 2012, 06:56 PM

Fernando K.

The inscription says;
"Very rare snaphaunce 1588"

It was written with a felt tipped pen when it was offered for sale.

According to the seller it was found in a French chateau during WW2 and brought home by a GI.

I am replacing the missing and incorrect screws following Matchlock's excellent
pictures as a guide. With a new axle and chain it should be good for another 400 years.

Best Regards, Johnhb

25th December 2011, 07:52 PM	#1
johnhb Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3	Extra button on wheellocks For my first post I would like to raise a question about the functioning of early wheellock mechanism. Reference, the excellent paper, "What Can be Learned from the Landeszeughaus Wheellock Collection in Graz, Austria", Robert E. Brooker. < http://asoac.org/bulletins/95_brooker_graz.pdf> Brooker shows a number of early locks, RG2, 3, 4, 5, and 285 where there is a button on the face of the lockplate, passing through the "V" of the mainspring and threaded into the sear. It appears as though pushing on the button will engage the sear with the hole in the wheel. It seems that winding would be a little clumsy since as the spanner was cranked the button would need to be pressed to lock the wheel in the wound position. In the top view of RG3 locks a leaf spring seems to be placed to apply a force to the sear but it is not clear from the illustrations as to which way the spring operates - to latch or unlatch the sear. Why did the early (roughly pre 1560) have this arrangement? Starting with RG9 the "new" design locks with safety catch no longer have the button. Does anyone know the history of the design of these locks in more detail? Best Regards, Johnhb

29th December 2011, 06:43 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi, The principle of the press button, wich is normally only known from wheellocks of the 1550's in the Graz armory, is to tighten the pressure on the sear when the wheel is spanned. The actual sear spring was often too weak for a safe contact between the sear rest and the full strength of the wheel spring. With the button pressed and in activated position, the trigger had to be pulled with significantly higher force. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 30th December 2011 at 12:01 AM.

1st January 2012, 07:58 PM	#6
johnhb Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3	Extra button on wheellocks Thank you to Fernando K, Fernando and Matchlock for your replies. Here is a later (about 1580?) wheellock which has the sear engagement button, missing its head. The button is pushed out by a spring so it disengages the sear from the wheel. This requires that the button be pushed with one hand as the wheel is wound with the other. Must have been inconvenient on horseback! The numbers on the bottom edge seem odd - perhaps they date from when it was made? Best Regards, Johnhb Attached Images

3rd January 2012, 08:04 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Johnhb, For better understanding I inverted your first image of the Augsburg wheel-lock to show its actual view. m Attached Images

4th January 2012, 02:47 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Fernando K., Thank you for remarking that. So it is left-hand lock which is very unusual, and I should not have inverted the image. The number 1588 and the other cyphers are certainly old inventory nos. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 4th January 2012 at 11:20 PM.

28th December 2011, 10:38 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hola Creo interpretar que te refieres al resorte que mueve al fiador secundario (second sear) que hace que el segundo fiador (sear second) trabe o bloquee al fiador primario (primary sear) cuando el extremo de este se ha introducido en el orificio en la rueda. El sistema siguiente fué de un sistema que tenía un resorte doble o de doble acción, que movía automáticamente los dos fiadores (sear), que hacían que se bloqueara la rueda. En cuanto a la antiguedad del sistema, otros miembros de este foro, con mas autordad ue la mía, te podran ayudar. Afectuosamente desde Argentina, Fernando Hello I interpret that you mean the spring that moves the secondary sear (sear second) which makes the second sear (sear second) lock or block the primary guarantor (primary sear) when the end of this has been introduced into the hole in the wheel . The following system was a system that had a twin or double spring action, which automatically moved two catches (SEAR), which made the wheel will lock. Regarding the old system, other members of this forum, with more autordad ue mine, you can help. Sincerely from Argentina, Fernando

29th December 2011, 10:17 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum johnhb, I expect you are satisfied with the answers to your question ... schematic drawings included

30th December 2011, 12:53 PM	#5
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hola. Ante todo, aclarar que mi intención no es iniciar una polémica con las ideas vertidas en los post anteriores, sino establecer el funcionamiento de la llave de rueda (wheellock).... Primero: La palanca de impulsar (button press) existe no solo en los ejemplares en la armeria de Graz, sino también en numerosos ejemplares de "tschinke". Justamente, en el thread reciente en este foro, se han adjuntado imágenes de "tschinke" que lo poseen. Segundo: El ejemplar elegido por JOHNHB para su interrogatorio, RG3 del trabajo de Brooker citado, no muestra ningún resorte actuando sobre el primer fiador (primary sear) Tercero: Para que el resorte del primer fiador (primary sear) como aparece en el diseño adjuntado por Matchlock agregue mas fuerza al contacto entre los dos fiadores (sear), el resorte tendría que actuar acercando al extremo del primer fiador (primary sear) a la cara interna de la platina(plate) y no alejándolo, como aparece representado Afectuosamente. Fernando KHello. First, to clarify that my intention is not to start a debate with the ideas expressed in previous posts, but to establish the operation of the lug wrench (wheellock ).... First, the drive lever (button press) exists not only in the specimens in the armory in Graz, but numerous copies of "tschinke." Precisely, in the recent thread on this forum, images have been attached "tschinke" who possess it. Second, the example chosen by JOHNHB for questioning RG3 Brooker's work cited shows no spring acting on the first latch (primary sear) Third: For the first detent spring (primary sear) as shown in the attached design by Matchlock add more force to the contact between the two guarantors (SEAR), the spring would have to move closer to the end of the first latch (primary sear) to the inside of the plate (plate) and away, as represented Affectionately. Fernando K

2nd January 2012, 04:24 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Johnhb, This lock is almost certainly of Augsburg manufacture, ca. 1590-1600. Best, Michael

3rd January 2012, 01:35 PM	#8
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hola, Johnhb: Para terminar, permitame expresar lo que un principio de honestidad intelectual y de respeto a todos los miembros de este foro me obliga a exponer: El primer fiador (primary sear) no precisa ningún resorte para moverse: cuando él orificio de la rueda ha llegado a su lugar, la presión que se ha ejercido sobre el botón hace que el extremos del primer fiador (primary sear) se le introduzca, leevantando el otro extremo y permitiendo que el segundo fiador (second sear) se le meta debajo y bloquee todo el mecanismo. Es seguramente, lo que pasa en el ejemplar de su post Nº 7, pese a sus palabras, y lo que claramente se vé en el RG3 del trabajo de Booker. Afectuosamente. Fernando K Hello, Johnhb: In closing, let me say what a principle of intellectual honesty and respect for all members of this forum compels me to state: The first latch (primary sear) requires no spring to move: when the opening of the conference is over, the pressure has been exerted on the button causes the ends of the first latch (primary sear) was introduced, leevantando the other end and allowing the second latch (second sear) is below target and block the entire mechanism. It is surely what happens in the copy of his post No. 7, despite his words, and what clearly is seen in the work of Booker RG3. Affectionately. Fernando K

4th January 2012, 01:51 PM	#10
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hola a todos: Si se invierte la fotografía, la cifra 1588 queda invertida: me parece que era una llave (lock) para la izquierda....Además, me parece que arriba de la cifra 1588 hay una inscripción, que no puedo descifrar..... Afectuosamente, Fernando K Hello all, Reversing the picture, the 1588 figure is reversed: I think it was a key (lock) to the left .... I also think that above the 1588 figure is an inscription that I can not figure out .... . Sincerely, Fernando K

4th January 2012, 10:33 PM	#12
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hola, JOHNNB Por favor, tu que tienes acceso a la pieza, puedes reproducir la inscripción? Afectuosamente. Fernando K Hello, JOHNNB Please, you who have access to the piece, can you reproduce the inscription? Affectionately. Fernando K . Last edited by fernando; 4th January 2012 at 10:55 PM. Reason: Improve translation

5th January 2012, 06:56 PM	#13
johnhb Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3	Extra Button on Wheellocks Fernando K. The inscription says; "Very rare snaphaunce 1588" It was written with a felt tipped pen when it was offered for sale. According to the seller it was found in a French chateau during WW2 and brought home by a GI. I am replacing the missing and incorrect screws following Matchlock's excellent pictures as a guide. With a new axle and chain it should be good for another 400 years. Best Regards, Johnhb