Holy Grail

Jazz · 27th July 2011, 09:27 AM

What would be the holy grail on moro weapons? i understand that each sword, whether it'd be a kriss, a barong, or a kampilan, are unique by itself, but there's got to be that one type that every collectors would want to have in their collection as the ultimate piece. What I'm trying to say is, for instance, the kriss: would one of those with the hugh ivory cockatoo be considered as the holy grail for this type of sword? Or would something that has a definite provenance, like knowing for sure who owned it originally would be THE holy grail? I was reading Cato's book again and i noticed that there's a kriss and a barong that has gold ferrules on both of them and this is how this topic came to mind. would those two be the holy grail on their respective type of sword?
I noticed that there's a lot of moro sword collectors here that has excellent pieces. What would be your definition of the holy grail? A picture to go with it would be great, so we can all drool, hehe...

Gavin Nugent · 27th July 2011, 11:06 AM

Jazz,

These are my Holy Grail items in the links below.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=pershing+moro

Bob Fulton has shed some wonderful light on this Kampilan and with the help of Jeff Pringle running down leads provided by Bob, the evidence is compelling but more on that another time.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=pershing+moro

My other Holy Grail item.

Gav

Battara · 27th July 2011, 02:52 PM

For Moro weapons, most would want a junggayan barong and kris, both with ivory and gold, and even rarer would be an ivory kampilan with gold (mine is ivory but no gold).

Gavin Nugent · 27th July 2011, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

For Moro weapons, most would want a junggayan barong and kris, both with ivory and gold, and even rarer would be an ivory kampilan with gold (mine is ivory but no gold).

All very nice but you forgot the addition of twistcore

Battara · 27th July 2011, 04:54 PM

OH yeah, good point (like the one on top of my head

)!

VANDOO · 28th July 2011, 03:39 AM

I SUPPOSE THE KAMPILLIAN USED BY LAPU LAPU TO KILL MAGELLAN,

WITH GOOD AUTHENTIC PROVENANCE ALONG WITH OTHER TROPHYS FROM THE VICTORY BOUGHT FROM THE DESENDENTS OF LAPU LAPU WOULD BE A HOLY GRAIL OF SORTS.
HIGH END EXAMPLES FROM CATOS BOOK WOULD ALSO QUALIFY.

AUTHENTIC PROVENANCE IS MORE RARE THAN THE WEAPONS WE COLLECT SO ANY WEAPON WITH INFO AND THE MORE ACURATE INFO THERE IS THE BETTER.
QUALITY, PRICE, MATERIALS USED TO MAKE IT ,IF IT CAN BE ASSIGNED TO A FAMOUS MAKER OF WEAPONS OR TO A PERSON OF NOTE SUCH AS ROYALTY ALL PLAY A PART

ON A INDIVIDUAL LEVEL IT MAY BE THE THING WE ARE MOST FOND OF.

PERHAPS BECAUSE OF HOW AND WHERE WE FOUND IT OR IF IT IS OUR FIRST OR A GIFT FROM SOMEONE WE CARE ABOUT OR SOMETHING WE SEARCHED FOR FOR 50 YEARS AND FINALLY GOT.

Jazz · 28th July 2011, 06:34 PM

Thank you, Gav. that's a beautiful kampilan! ever since you have posted that, I've been dreaming about owning a similar type, with bells and double handguards. you are indeed lucky to acquire that!
would you care to post your ivory kampilan, Batara? It would indeed be nice to have some sort of database for the holy grail.
Okay, we are starting to narrow it down here.
so for a kampilan, an ivory and gold handle (similar to the one on Cato's book, I believe it's the one that's in the Philippine Museum) or similar would be THE holy grail.
For kriss: a large cockatoo ivory pommel with gold handle, and twistcore. i concur with that! I wonder if our fellow forumite Bill M. would have an example of that type that he can post (hint, hint). there is a fine example on Cato's book as well.
For the barong:Bill M's barong would certainly qualify as the holy grail in the barong world! I have not seen a lot of those myself. Again, going back to Cato's book, there is a barong that has a similar type of handle materials. Hope whoever owns it at the moment would post a clearer picture, or pictures. here's a link to his wonderful gold and ivory barong:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=barong

David · 28th July 2011, 06:46 PM

I think Bill's example that you link to her is pretty close for me, but i also think that this is pretty much a personal matter. I don't think a general "holy grail" exists.

Jazz · 28th July 2011, 07:08 PM

Of course there is, David. we just haven't established it yet.

Battara · 29th July 2011, 06:11 AM

Jazz - your wish is granted:

(the eyes are silver coins, the "staple" is silver, and the grip is made of alternating silver and copper okir bands)

Battara · 29th July 2011, 06:16 AM

Here is the piece with the scabbard carved in Maranao okir the entire length of the scabbard (it is in 2 pieces and in break away form).

Nathaniel · 29th July 2011, 06:29 AM

Fun thread...all this talk about the Holy Grail had me thinking of Indian Jones and Last Crusade...I know this is geeky, but remember at the end when they have to choose the grail among a whole collection of goblets? The fancy one turned the guy to dust! And it was the plain cup of the carpenter that was the real grail!

Anyways, so the real grail should be both rare and functional...not just fancy :P Nah, well, I understand though, just a fun topic for discussion

Jazz · 30th July 2011, 10:48 AM

thank you for posting your kampilan, Battara! that's a real nice one. anybody else?

Maurice · 30th July 2011, 12:04 PM

To me it could be the combination with provenance, even without ivory and gold...

Indianajones · 30th July 2011, 01:23 PM

Anyone called me? ; Indiana Jones!?
This may be something totally different than a Kampilan, a Barongs or Kerisses, but its the 'Holy Grail' (or one of them) for me; a rare N.-Philippine
Ilongot-tribe cutlass.
Unfortunately I do not (yet??!!) own one of these beauties and hope the owner of this one doesnt mind using the pics.

If anyone has/knows one for sale . . .?? Would offer a good sum for one spec. with scabbard!

(which can have different forms but mostly with an 'elbow'form)

But I know of a few other 'Holy grails' as well as I guess each tribe has its own ultimate beautyful/gracefull (and therefore rare and wanted) object! And when you think you've seen it all; you encounter an even better one!

Battara · 30th July 2011, 03:55 PM

Nice Ilongot piece - rare to see these, never mind the fact that it is complete.

David · 30th July 2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazz

Of course there is, David. we just haven't established it yet.

Sorry Jazz, i disagree. Tastes vary far too widely amongst collectors for there ever to be agreement on a "holy grail" of Moro weapons. The comparison is weird anyway. The Holy Grail is a singular article of desired attainment. As collectors we never desire just one thing.

And it is not desired because it is necessarily beautifully crafted or stunningly decorated, but because of how it was used and whose lips it reportedly touched (and as the story goes, whose blood it may have once held).
You might come closer narrowing down the field asking for a "holy grai"l of kris, or kampilan, or barong, etc. But even then tastes will vary. Not everyone likes fancy, pretty weapons. Some collectors prefer a good battle blade to a dandied up datu weapon. Maybe my ideal of the "holy grail" of kris is not the pretty, perfect weapon, but the one historically known to have brought down some high ranking American officer in battle. That would be more in keeping with the grail concept anyway as the actual Holy Grail, if such a thing does exist, is most probably a modest little cup that had a fantastic history, not some silver or gold jewel encrusted thing.
I am afraid that you or anybody else will never be able to establish what i like personally. It just can't be done.

That said this thread is a great opportunity to show off everyone's best and favorite Moro weapons. So bring 'em on fellas. But i can assure you nothing will be establishes by it.

Rick · 30th July 2011, 05:57 PM

I'm about full up on personal Grails meself .

Rick

Indianajones · 30th July 2011, 06:17 PM

OEPS . . . . .I apparently overread that this is a quest for the 'Holy Grail' of MORO arms . . . .. . .sorry to disrubt the thread!

Guess I wont bother you with this dusty boring Northern shield I found in my attic!

Jazz · 30th July 2011, 07:06 PM

thank you for the clarification, David!!! You have an excellent point. Not to mention, there are still Moro weapons out there that is still "undiscovered", so yeah, it's pretty hard to say. And yes, you are right about provenance as well.

Quote:

You might come closer narrowing down the field asking for a "holy grai"l of kris, or kampilan, or barong, etc.

This is exactly what I am trying to figure out. so ok, maybe not THE Holy Grail, but close would be good

Again, on Cato's book, the picture of the Kris and the Barong that were attributed to the sultan or well-off datu, the ones with gold fitting, would be as close to a holy grail in their particular field. Too bad there's no close ups. But being so rare and exquisite looking, I'm sure moro enthusiasts wouldn't mind having any of these pieces in their collection!

hello, indianajones, is that a barong?

KuKulzA28 · 30th July 2011, 08:56 PM

Well, for those who like to swing their weapons around... the holy grail could be one that seems to just come alive in their hand. Like, the warrior who had this years and years before me must have appreciated a grip-size and balance similar to my tastes....

With blades there are many nice pamor blades, amazing wootz and twistcore, lovely ivory, gold, swassa, silver, etc... interesting provenances...
Just as with guns there are the "holy grails" of finely crafted damscus barrels, extremely handsome walnut stocks, and silverwork done on the locks - all the way to high-tech plastics, tactical stocks and accessories, extremely rugged and powerful scopes, cold hammer forged chrome lined barrels... Vasili Zaitsev's rifle, or your Grandfather's Tompson, or even George Washington's own pistol....
or even with say, bows... some preferring composite bows made of horn, bone, and wood... others preferring a simple self-bow made of yew or Osage... and still others feel their holy grail is a modern made synthetc bow with all the pulleys and sights and stuff...

But sometimes a weapon will just feel "meant to be" in your hand. Not just "oh that's a nice blade" but, "wow, I can't believe this was not custom made for my hand and my preferences". That, to me, is a holy grail.

Battara · 31st July 2011, 05:14 AM

Here is another grail: a sultan's barong with ivory, silver, and gold, including silver inlay (from the catalog: The Gods of War ).

Jazz · 31st July 2011, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Here is another grail: a sultan's barong with ivory, silver, and gold, including silver inlay (from the catalog: The Gods of War ).

wow! now that's a barong to end all barongs!!! Thank you, Battara! I would consider that close to a holy grail

Gavin Nugent · 31st July 2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazz

wow! now that's a barong to end all barongs!!! Thank you, Battara! I would consider that close to a holy grail

Again, add twistcore....they are out there though expect to give up a kidney...

Maurice · 3rd August 2011, 11:09 PM

Here the two favorite morokrisses I have.

Not holy grails, but close according my standards....

Atlantia · 3rd August 2011, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Here the two favorite morokrisses I have.

Not holy grails, but close according my standards....

I was just thinking that a beautiful Kris would be about my ultimate Moro item and 'hey presto' two come along.....

REALLY NICE!

Battara · 4th August 2011, 12:32 AM

Here is one of my grails: a Maguindanao kris with silver blade inlay and a hilt of ivory, braided silver, and okir swassa (gold/copper mix).

Jazz · 4th August 2011, 10:02 AM

wow, excellent krises! thank you for posting!!!

27th July 2011, 09:27 AM	#1
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	Holy Grail What would be the holy grail on moro weapons? i understand that each sword, whether it'd be a kriss, a barong, or a kampilan, are unique by itself, but there's got to be that one type that every collectors would want to have in their collection as the ultimate piece. What I'm trying to say is, for instance, the kriss: would one of those with the hugh ivory cockatoo be considered as the holy grail for this type of sword? Or would something that has a definite provenance, like knowing for sure who owned it originally would be THE holy grail? I was reading Cato's book again and i noticed that there's a kriss and a barong that has gold ferrules on both of them and this is how this topic came to mind. would those two be the holy grail on their respective type of sword? I noticed that there's a lot of moro sword collectors here that has excellent pieces. What would be your definition of the holy grail? A picture to go with it would be great, so we can all drool, hehe...

27th July 2011, 11:06 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Holy Grail Jazz, These are my Holy Grail items in the links below. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=pershing+moro Bob Fulton has shed some wonderful light on this Kampilan and with the help of Jeff Pringle running down leads provided by Bob, the evidence is compelling but more on that another time. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=pershing+moro My other Holy Grail item. Gav

29th July 2011, 06:11 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Jazz - your wish is granted: (the eyes are silver coins, the "staple" is silver, and the grip is made of alternating silver and copper okir bands) Attached Images

29th July 2011, 06:16 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Here is the piece with the scabbard carved in Maranao okir the entire length of the scabbard (it is in 2 pieces and in break away form). Attached Images

30th July 2011, 01:23 PM	#15
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Anyone called me? ; Indiana Jones!? This may be something totally different than a Kampilan, a Barongs or Kerisses, but its the 'Holy Grail' (or one of them) for me; a rare N.-Philippine Ilongot-tribe cutlass. Unfortunately I do not (yet??!!) own one of these beauties and hope the owner of this one doesnt mind using the pics. If anyone has/knows one for sale . . .?? Would offer a good sum for one spec. with scabbard! (which can have different forms but mostly with an 'elbow'form) But I know of a few other 'Holy grails' as well as I guess each tribe has its own ultimate beautyful/gracefull (and therefore rare and wanted) object! And when you think you've seen it all; you encounter an even better one! Attached Images

27th July 2011, 02:52 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	For Moro weapons, most would want a junggayan barong and kris, both with ivory and gold, and even rarer would be an ivory kampilan with gold (mine is ivory but no gold).

27th July 2011, 04:54 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	OH yeah, good point (like the one on top of my head )!

28th July 2011, 03:39 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I SUPPOSE THE KAMPILLIAN USED BY LAPU LAPU TO KILL MAGELLAN, WITH GOOD AUTHENTIC PROVENANCE ALONG WITH OTHER TROPHYS FROM THE VICTORY BOUGHT FROM THE DESENDENTS OF LAPU LAPU WOULD BE A HOLY GRAIL OF SORTS. HIGH END EXAMPLES FROM CATOS BOOK WOULD ALSO QUALIFY. AUTHENTIC PROVENANCE IS MORE RARE THAN THE WEAPONS WE COLLECT SO ANY WEAPON WITH INFO AND THE MORE ACURATE INFO THERE IS THE BETTER. QUALITY, PRICE, MATERIALS USED TO MAKE IT ,IF IT CAN BE ASSIGNED TO A FAMOUS MAKER OF WEAPONS OR TO A PERSON OF NOTE SUCH AS ROYALTY ALL PLAY A PART ON A INDIVIDUAL LEVEL IT MAY BE THE THING WE ARE MOST FOND OF. PERHAPS BECAUSE OF HOW AND WHERE WE FOUND IT OR IF IT IS OUR FIRST OR A GIFT FROM SOMEONE WE CARE ABOUT OR SOMETHING WE SEARCHED FOR FOR 50 YEARS AND FINALLY GOT.

28th July 2011, 06:34 PM	#7
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	Thank you, Gav. that's a beautiful kampilan! ever since you have posted that, I've been dreaming about owning a similar type, with bells and double handguards. you are indeed lucky to acquire that! would you care to post your ivory kampilan, Batara? It would indeed be nice to have some sort of database for the holy grail. Okay, we are starting to narrow it down here. so for a kampilan, an ivory and gold handle (similar to the one on Cato's book, I believe it's the one that's in the Philippine Museum) or similar would be THE holy grail. For kriss: a large cockatoo ivory pommel with gold handle, and twistcore. i concur with that! I wonder if our fellow forumite Bill M. would have an example of that type that he can post (hint, hint). there is a fine example on Cato's book as well. For the barong:Bill M's barong would certainly qualify as the holy grail in the barong world! I have not seen a lot of those myself. Again, going back to Cato's book, there is a barong that has a similar type of handle materials. Hope whoever owns it at the moment would post a clearer picture, or pictures. here's a link to his wonderful gold and ivory barong: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=barong

28th July 2011, 06:46 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	I think Bill's example that you link to her is pretty close for me, but i also think that this is pretty much a personal matter. I don't think a general "holy grail" exists.

28th July 2011, 07:08 PM	#9
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	Of course there is, David. we just haven't established it yet.

29th July 2011, 06:29 AM	#12
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Fun thread...all this talk about the Holy Grail had me thinking of Indian Jones and Last Crusade...I know this is geeky, but remember at the end when they have to choose the grail among a whole collection of goblets? The fancy one turned the guy to dust! And it was the plain cup of the carpenter that was the real grail! Anyways, so the real grail should be both rare and functional...not just fancy :P Nah, well, I understand though, just a fun topic for discussion

30th July 2011, 10:48 AM	#13
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	thank you for posting your kampilan, Battara! that's a real nice one. anybody else?

30th July 2011, 12:04 PM	#14
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	To me it could be the combination with provenance, even without ivory and gold...

30th July 2011, 03:55 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Nice Ilongot piece - rare to see these, never mind the fact that it is complete.

30th July 2011, 05:57 PM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I'm about full up on personal Grails meself . Rick

30th July 2011, 06:17 PM	#19
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	OEPS . . . . .I apparently overread that this is a quest for the 'Holy Grail' of MORO arms . . . .. . .sorry to disrubt the thread! Guess I wont bother you with this dusty boring Northern shield I found in my attic! Attached Images

30th July 2011, 08:56 PM	#21
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Well, for those who like to swing their weapons around... the holy grail could be one that seems to just come alive in their hand. Like, the warrior who had this years and years before me must have appreciated a grip-size and balance similar to my tastes.... With blades there are many nice pamor blades, amazing wootz and twistcore, lovely ivory, gold, swassa, silver, etc... interesting provenances... Just as with guns there are the "holy grails" of finely crafted damscus barrels, extremely handsome walnut stocks, and silverwork done on the locks - all the way to high-tech plastics, tactical stocks and accessories, extremely rugged and powerful scopes, cold hammer forged chrome lined barrels... Vasili Zaitsev's rifle, or your Grandfather's Tompson, or even George Washington's own pistol.... or even with say, bows... some preferring composite bows made of horn, bone, and wood... others preferring a simple self-bow made of yew or Osage... and still others feel their holy grail is a modern made synthetc bow with all the pulleys and sights and stuff... But sometimes a weapon will just feel "meant to be" in your hand. Not just "oh that's a nice blade" but, "wow, I can't believe this was not custom made for my hand and my preferences". That, to me, is a holy grail.

31st July 2011, 05:14 AM	#22
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Here is another grail: a sultan's barong with ivory, silver, and gold, including silver inlay (from the catalog: The Gods of War ). Attached Images

3rd August 2011, 11:09 PM	#25
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Here the two favorite morokrisses I have. Not holy grails, but close according my standards.... Attached Images

4th August 2011, 12:32 AM	#27
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Here is one of my grails: a Maguindanao kris with silver blade inlay and a hilt of ivory, braided silver, and okir swassa (gold/copper mix). Attached Images

4th August 2011, 10:02 AM	#28
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	wow, excellent krises! thank you for posting!!!