A navy cutlass i think, but ... where from ?

fernando · 11th July 2011, 02:31 PM

The provenance is a collection from a local family house. But it doesn't have to be Portuguese; having most probably seen service in Portugal, but certainly imported, i would say.
I don't find tis model in the couple publications i have; the grip and hilt are iron, the guard edges rolled only in the narrow section, half way to the pommel. The slightly curved blade measures 70 cms ( 27 1/2"); the tip might have been clipped, probably broken by accident?.
A rather slight ridge can be noticed in the last section, ending in the tip.
Quite wide (38 mm) and thick (8 mm), both measured at the short (but existant) ricasso.
The lozenge label is in copper; could the number #125 be a regimental mark?
The slot for the sword knot defines this sword as non civilian, right?
Any help to ID this piece would be much appreciated.

.

fernando · 11th July 2011, 05:41 PM

Could this be the British PI845 ?

M ELEY · 12th July 2011, 03:08 AM

You hit it right on the head, Fernando! It is in fact the m1845 british boarding cutlass with the diamond-shaped copper plate displaying the rack number (this would have been assigned to a specific part of the ship and cataloged as such). These are very popular among naval collectors, although this one has seen better days. That being said, I like it! The rusting shows true character and probable use at sea (salt air just loved these swords, thus the reason many were primed/painted/japanned and tarred to reduce rusting). Many examples are pristine because they never saw any action, just sat there on some lonesome rail rack-

). These were used after the Age of Fighting Sail (post 1820), so hand to hand fighting on deck as well as naval combat had decreased, but one must remember that this was the time of the Malay pirates, Sepoy Mutiny and merchant shipping passing through other pirate hot-spots. These served as deterrents for both native attacks, pirate boardings and potential mutinies.

As far as I know, this pattern was only used by the British. I say this without absolute certainty because an earlier type of British cutlass, the figure-of-eight m1804, was so popular, that it was copied in multiple countries (I'm not at home to access my books, but I believe Norway, Germany/Austria, Sweden, the U.S., etc) but lacked the GR (George Rex) marking. Some had the crown mark, but a different crown than that found on the British types. The German makers Schnitzler and Kirschbaum even made a version with a spurious GR marking into the 1850's. This is obviously a whole different thread, though.

This model was replaced in the 1870's with another naval pattern, so this sword's 'life' would be in the 1845-1870 range. I noice that the tip on yours is slightly different than the standard pattern (reshaped during it's working life?), which isn't unheard of for these hands-on swords. Like the boarding axes and other naval implements before it, these items were often sharpened to death. Likewise, if it was de-commissioned after naval use to a merchant ship, it could easily have been shortened to the user's liking. I also mention the decommissioning to answer your question as to whether it was a naval sword or a private purchase. Probably both, but it definitely started life as naval. For some reason, with naval pieces (many of which were carried on ships LONG after they were obsolete), they seemed to be handed down from government usage to private purchase. Thus, we see U.S. naval boarding axes from the 1800-1812 era with re-issuance stamps, shortened hafts, cut-down or flattened spikes, etc, that were not the original axes, but altered during their working life (and not in ways the U.S. naval inspector Mr.Tarbell would have approved of-

). In any case, a nice find, my friend. And you were right about getting my attention!

fernando · 12th July 2011, 01:42 PM

Excelent Mark,
Thank you so much for the treatise.
Yes, i agree with you that this cutlass has seen service in a British naval ship. Not that British weaponry of the XIX century wasn't exported, donated or copied by the Portuguese (remember the Peninsular war ... and not only), but the rack number style, as recognized by you, is a strong indicator that this one sailed in British ships ... at least in its first encarnation.
Thanks again for having poured all that knowledge in this thread.

Matchlock · 12th July 2011, 06:03 PM

Hi 'Nando,

Your collecting range seems to be unlimited!

Best,
Michl

fernando · 12th July 2011, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi 'Nando,

Your collecting range seems to be unlimited!

Best,
Michl

.

M ELEY · 14th July 2011, 05:48 AM

I confirmed that the typical length on these is 28 3/4". The tip isn't typical, so it could as we both surmised, be shortened, but there is also the chance that this is a varient (i.e. Spanish or Portuguese) pattern. As I mentioned in the PM to you, the British m1803/4 was a popular naval model that was both exported to Spain/Portugal after the wars as surplus, but also directly (these are the pieces that either lack the GR gov't stamp or have the Spanish crown imprint on them). If this pattern (the figure of 8 m1803) was so popular that it was made for other countries, there's no reason to immediately dismiss that the m1845 might not have been as well. Here are some points to consider-
#1. I am unaware of any specific naval cutlass pattern being used by Spain or Portugal during the 1800-50 time period. Prior naval swords were not regimental "model" swords, but just whatever one wished to carry to sea (much as the Americans, British, etc. The Dutch seemed to be the exception for the pre-1800 period). We know that the Spanish did go with the bowl-hilted cutlass similar to the French m1833 after 1860, as did the U.S.

#2. Many of the previously governed Spanish provinces in S. America and Mexico were using naval surplus swords or patterns copying the British and French pieces of the period.

#3. This one is an enigma that has bothered me for years, but here it goes. In Brinkerhoff's "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America", he has pictured (in plate 204) a sword so closely resembling the m1845 British that there is no doubt they are the same with very minor differences. This sword has the cupped hilt that became popular with cutlasses post 1800-10, with the knuckle bow with outside ridges like the m1845 and earlier 1816 Starr boarding cutlass curling out to the pommel. The grip on Brinkerhoff's sword is wooden with leather covering, but it is ribbed and resembles the m1845 13 grooved hilt exactly (if I hadn't read it was wood/leather, I would have thought them a spot-on match). The blade of this one is exactly like the m1845, a nearly straight spear-pointed blade curving only at the very end.

This sword is marked "Artilleria" and dated 1819!! Now some cutlass types did serve artillery units, thus the confusion with so many ribbed brass hilt British cutlass patterns that served the mountain troopers, British Lifeguard, Naval police, etc. If we are to believe that this sword is not spuriously marked, it definately makes the case that the m1845 British pattern MIGHT have come from an earlier Spanish pattern. Does anyone have a scanner so that they could send us a pic of the sword I speak of? Mine is not readily availible.

In any case, this just proves once again just how many unanswered questions there are about this "grey area" of collecting. Naval stores were used, re-issued, altered, sold to other countries, etc, with very little records to help track them down. To this day, there is no solid consensus as to what our own U.S. Marine Corp carried in the 1790-1800 period of American history. All we can do is...more research!

fernando · 14th July 2011, 10:46 PM

Dear Mark,

I must say i am smashed with such imense input, which will take me ages to digest.
One thing comes out of my residual knowledge, though; it looks more plausible that Spaniards (and Portuguese) copied British models than the other way round ... specially (or specifically) within this period, as already approached.
In the meantime i dare post some random details on the subject, to either enlighten it a bit or, which is more probable, add it further complexity.

In his work ARMAMENTO PORTATIL ESPAÑOL 1764-1990, Marceló Rubi illustrates and describes a SABLE DE ABORDAJE (boarding cutlass), with overall characteristics similar to the British P1845, except for the shallow blade fullers and the turning of the guard top (i miss the correct term

).
There is no certainty as to the date of this model but, as the example exhibited at the Toledo Factory reads 1859, it is thought such is the date of this pattern.

.

fernando · 14th July 2011, 11:04 PM

Well known Spanish weapons historian Juan L. Calvó cites a 'third' model, used in the 1890 decade, which appears in one picture of the work EJERCITO ESPAÑOL de Luis Tasso, showing some seamen doing exercizes with such sabre (cutlass), which one would find equal to the British 1845, with a symetrical bowl guard, rimmed in its start. Mr.Calvó mentions that he has only seen one exemplar of these models, without any marks in its blade.

M ELEY · 15th July 2011, 07:10 AM

Thank you, 'Nando, for posting this information! I'm always looking for more knowledge on the evolution of the cutlass throughout its history. I was unfamiliar with this particular volume and that cutlass pic is awesome. It supports my earlier point that the pattern was copied. Good point, also, that it was more than likely copied from the Brit m1845. The example in Brinkerhoff's book marked "1819" remains a mystery and could have been so-marked to represent a special date, event, or ?
As you astutely point out, this information both adds to the knowledge we have, but also further opens the mystery ( if these were produced on a large scale, why don't they turn up more often? Were they produced for the navy or a private-purchase merchant fleet? Did these Spanish swords make their way to former republics such as Argentina, Brazil, etc? Remember our Brazilian cutlass we've discussed in the past?). In any case, thanks again for the reference. I'll file it away in my records...

fernando · 15th July 2011, 06:58 PM

There isn't much written stuff within my reach on the Naval area, but i will keep in mind to check on the possibility of the Brits having sent P1845 cutlasses to Portugal, on whatever condition.
So far i can only assume my example was acquired in Britain and brought over by someone, for any reason ... not probably a collector, judging by its poor condition lacking enthusiasm for such purpose.
I gave it some cleaning, based on (first dry and after wet) sand paper; the result is modest, a bit better at naked eye than in the pictures.
Say Mark, the black paint; the grip was surely painted black, as some traces remain in it, but the pommel ? was it also painted ? i don't think the guard was painted, as no traces there. What would you say about that ? ... and, such black paint finish would be mat or glossy?

.

fernando · 15th July 2011, 07:09 PM

I was searching my couple books and found out what is supposed to be a true Portuguese boarding cutlass; in the catalogue of the fine collection of the Palace of Vila Viçosa.
This is considered the regular model of the Portuguese Royal Navy in the first half XIX century and still in use in 1863.
The hilt and grip are in iron and there is a slot for the lanyard. Blade slightly curved, with a false edge near the tip.

.

M ELEY · 16th July 2011, 07:34 AM

Mat vs glossy finish- In truth, I've seen and handled both. It also depended on the type of material used during the japanning process. In the earlier cutlass, say pre-1800, they tend to have a flat finish, but whether this was from weathering over time or the advances in types of primer in the later century, I'm not sure. Likewise, one must be careful to look for honest aging, as modern spray paint has a glossy finish.

Your sword- Hmmm. Perhaps the guard has had the paint worn off faster then the pommel/grip? The pics don't tell a full story, as at first, I thought the guard had been primed. Judging from the extensive pitting, I'd say the guard seems to have taken the brunt as far as weathering. That being said, I do have that one cutlass that I posted awhile back with the sheet metal guard, late GR marking and ribbed iron cast grip. It's sheet guard had only a very light brown primer compared to the grip and blade. Not sure why this is.

That pic of the Portugeuse sword is the best. A m1803 on the 'Bay not that long ago had a grip just like this one (with the grip shaped literally for the hand), but I had never seen one and suspected it was a 'put-together". In retrospect, it was probably one of that particular model that had been produced in your country. Very interesting! BTW, judging from your new pics, this probably is the Brit pattern with a shortened blade (you can see where the ridge on the side of the blade originally would have come to the tip. I think it has wonderful character and I'm glad you gave it a good polish. Too bad we may never know for sure how it ended up in your neck of the woods, but the most likely case, I think, is as an import. The wear & tear came in it's long working life serving on a local merchant ship.

14th July 2011, 10:46 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Dear Mark, I must say i am smashed with such imense input, which will take me ages to digest. One thing comes out of my residual knowledge, though; it looks more plausible that Spaniards (and Portuguese) copied British models than the other way round ... specially (or specifically) within this period, as already approached. In the meantime i dare post some random details on the subject, to either enlighten it a bit or, which is more probable, add it further complexity. In his work ARMAMENTO PORTATIL ESPAÑOL 1764-1990, Marceló Rubi illustrates and describes a SABLE DE ABORDAJE (boarding cutlass), with overall characteristics similar to the British P1845, except for the shallow blade fullers and the turning of the guard top (i miss the correct term ). There is no certainty as to the date of this model but, as the example exhibited at the Toledo Factory reads 1859, it is thought such is the date of this pattern. . Attached Images

14th July 2011, 11:04 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Further Well known Spanish weapons historian Juan L. Calvó cites a 'third' model, used in the 1890 decade, which appears in one picture of the work EJERCITO ESPAÑOL de Luis Tasso, showing some seamen doing exercizes with such sabre (cutlass), which one would find equal to the British 1845, with a symetrical bowl guard, rimmed in its start. Mr.Calvó mentions that he has only seen one exemplar of these models, without any marks in its blade.

15th July 2011, 07:10 AM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Awesome information! Thank you, 'Nando, for posting this information! I'm always looking for more knowledge on the evolution of the cutlass throughout its history. I was unfamiliar with this particular volume and that cutlass pic is awesome. It supports my earlier point that the pattern was copied. Good point, also, that it was more than likely copied from the Brit m1845. The example in Brinkerhoff's book marked "1819" remains a mystery and could have been so-marked to represent a special date, event, or ? As you astutely point out, this information both adds to the knowledge we have, but also further opens the mystery ( if these were produced on a large scale, why don't they turn up more often? Were they produced for the navy or a private-purchase merchant fleet? Did these Spanish swords make their way to former republics such as Argentina, Brazil, etc? Remember our Brazilian cutlass we've discussed in the past?). In any case, thanks again for the reference. I'll file it away in my records...

15th July 2011, 06:58 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	There isn't much written stuff within my reach on the Naval area, but i will keep in mind to check on the possibility of the Brits having sent P1845 cutlasses to Portugal, on whatever condition. So far i can only assume my example was acquired in Britain and brought over by someone, for any reason ... not probably a collector, judging by its poor condition lacking enthusiasm for such purpose. I gave it some cleaning, based on (first dry and after wet) sand paper; the result is modest, a bit better at naked eye than in the pictures. Say Mark, the black paint; the grip was surely painted black, as some traces remain in it, but the pommel ? was it also painted ? i don't think the guard was painted, as no traces there. What would you say about that ? ... and, such black paint finish would be mat or glossy? . Attached Images

11th July 2011, 02:31 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A navy cutlass i think, but ... where from ? The provenance is a collection from a local family house. But it doesn't have to be Portuguese; having most probably seen service in Portugal, but certainly imported, i would say. I don't find tis model in the couple publications i have; the grip and hilt are iron, the guard edges rolled only in the narrow section, half way to the pommel. The slightly curved blade measures 70 cms ( 27 1/2"); the tip might have been clipped, probably broken by accident?. A rather slight ridge can be noticed in the last section, ending in the tip. Quite wide (38 mm) and thick (8 mm), both measured at the short (but existant) ricasso. The lozenge label is in copper; could the number #125 be a regimental mark? The slot for the sword knot defines this sword as non civilian, right? Any help to ID this piece would be much appreciated. . Attached Images

11th July 2011, 05:41 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	After some intense browsing ... Could this be the British PI845 ?

12th July 2011, 03:08 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	You hit it right on the head, Fernando! It is in fact the m1845 british boarding cutlass with the diamond-shaped copper plate displaying the rack number (this would have been assigned to a specific part of the ship and cataloged as such). These are very popular among naval collectors, although this one has seen better days. That being said, I like it! The rusting shows true character and probable use at sea (salt air just loved these swords, thus the reason many were primed/painted/japanned and tarred to reduce rusting). Many examples are pristine because they never saw any action, just sat there on some lonesome rail rack- ). These were used after the Age of Fighting Sail (post 1820), so hand to hand fighting on deck as well as naval combat had decreased, but one must remember that this was the time of the Malay pirates, Sepoy Mutiny and merchant shipping passing through other pirate hot-spots. These served as deterrents for both native attacks, pirate boardings and potential mutinies. As far as I know, this pattern was only used by the British. I say this without absolute certainty because an earlier type of British cutlass, the figure-of-eight m1804, was so popular, that it was copied in multiple countries (I'm not at home to access my books, but I believe Norway, Germany/Austria, Sweden, the U.S., etc) but lacked the GR (George Rex) marking. Some had the crown mark, but a different crown than that found on the British types. The German makers Schnitzler and Kirschbaum even made a version with a spurious GR marking into the 1850's. This is obviously a whole different thread, though. This model was replaced in the 1870's with another naval pattern, so this sword's 'life' would be in the 1845-1870 range. I noice that the tip on yours is slightly different than the standard pattern (reshaped during it's working life?), which isn't unheard of for these hands-on swords. Like the boarding axes and other naval implements before it, these items were often sharpened to death. Likewise, if it was de-commissioned after naval use to a merchant ship, it could easily have been shortened to the user's liking. I also mention the decommissioning to answer your question as to whether it was a naval sword or a private purchase. Probably both, but it definitely started life as naval. For some reason, with naval pieces (many of which were carried on ships LONG after they were obsolete), they seemed to be handed down from government usage to private purchase. Thus, we see U.S. naval boarding axes from the 1800-1812 era with re-issuance stamps, shortened hafts, cut-down or flattened spikes, etc, that were not the original axes, but altered during their working life (and not in ways the U.S. naval inspector Mr.Tarbell would have approved of- ). In any case, a nice find, my friend. And you were right about getting my attention! Last edited by M ELEY; 12th July 2011 at 05:14 AM.

12th July 2011, 01:42 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Excelent Mark, Thank you so much for the treatise. Yes, i agree with you that this cutlass has seen service in a British naval ship. Not that British weaponry of the XIX century wasn't exported, donated or copied by the Portuguese (remember the Peninsular war ... and not only), but the rack number style, as recognized by you, is a strong indicator that this one sailed in British ships ... at least in its first encarnation. Thanks again for having poured all that knowledge in this thread.

12th July 2011, 06:03 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, Your collecting range seems to be unlimited! Best, Michl

14th July 2011, 05:48 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	I confirmed that the typical length on these is 28 3/4". The tip isn't typical, so it could as we both surmised, be shortened, but there is also the chance that this is a varient (i.e. Spanish or Portuguese) pattern. As I mentioned in the PM to you, the British m1803/4 was a popular naval model that was both exported to Spain/Portugal after the wars as surplus, but also directly (these are the pieces that either lack the GR gov't stamp or have the Spanish crown imprint on them). If this pattern (the figure of 8 m1803) was so popular that it was made for other countries, there's no reason to immediately dismiss that the m1845 might not have been as well. Here are some points to consider- #1. I am unaware of any specific naval cutlass pattern being used by Spain or Portugal during the 1800-50 time period. Prior naval swords were not regimental "model" swords, but just whatever one wished to carry to sea (much as the Americans, British, etc. The Dutch seemed to be the exception for the pre-1800 period). We know that the Spanish did go with the bowl-hilted cutlass similar to the French m1833 after 1860, as did the U.S. #2. Many of the previously governed Spanish provinces in S. America and Mexico were using naval surplus swords or patterns copying the British and French pieces of the period. #3. This one is an enigma that has bothered me for years, but here it goes. In Brinkerhoff's "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America", he has pictured (in plate 204) a sword so closely resembling the m1845 British that there is no doubt they are the same with very minor differences. This sword has the cupped hilt that became popular with cutlasses post 1800-10, with the knuckle bow with outside ridges like the m1845 and earlier 1816 Starr boarding cutlass curling out to the pommel. The grip on Brinkerhoff's sword is wooden with leather covering, but it is ribbed and resembles the m1845 13 grooved hilt exactly (if I hadn't read it was wood/leather, I would have thought them a spot-on match). The blade of this one is exactly like the m1845, a nearly straight spear-pointed blade curving only at the very end. This sword is marked "Artilleria" and dated 1819!! Now some cutlass types did serve artillery units, thus the confusion with so many ribbed brass hilt British cutlass patterns that served the mountain troopers, British Lifeguard, Naval police, etc. If we are to believe that this sword is not spuriously marked, it definately makes the case that the m1845 British pattern MIGHT have come from an earlier Spanish pattern. Does anyone have a scanner so that they could send us a pic of the sword I speak of? Mine is not readily availible. In any case, this just proves once again just how many unanswered questions there are about this "grey area" of collecting. Naval stores were used, re-issued, altered, sold to other countries, etc, with very little records to help track them down. To this day, there is no solid consensus as to what our own U.S. Marine Corp carried in the 1790-1800 period of American history. All we can do is...more research!

15th July 2011, 07:09 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	For your perusal I was searching my couple books and found out what is supposed to be a true Portuguese boarding cutlass; in the catalogue of the fine collection of the Palace of Vila Viçosa. This is considered the regular model of the Portuguese Royal Navy in the first half XIX century and still in use in 1863. The hilt and grip are in iron and there is a slot for the lanyard. Blade slightly curved, with a false edge near the tip. . Attached Images

16th July 2011, 07:34 AM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Mat vs glossy finish- In truth, I've seen and handled both. It also depended on the type of material used during the japanning process. In the earlier cutlass, say pre-1800, they tend to have a flat finish, but whether this was from weathering over time or the advances in types of primer in the later century, I'm not sure. Likewise, one must be careful to look for honest aging, as modern spray paint has a glossy finish. Your sword- Hmmm. Perhaps the guard has had the paint worn off faster then the pommel/grip? The pics don't tell a full story, as at first, I thought the guard had been primed. Judging from the extensive pitting, I'd say the guard seems to have taken the brunt as far as weathering. That being said, I do have that one cutlass that I posted awhile back with the sheet metal guard, late GR marking and ribbed iron cast grip. It's sheet guard had only a very light brown primer compared to the grip and blade. Not sure why this is. That pic of the Portugeuse sword is the best. A m1803 on the 'Bay not that long ago had a grip just like this one (with the grip shaped literally for the hand), but I had never seen one and suspected it was a 'put-together". In retrospect, it was probably one of that particular model that had been produced in your country. Very interesting! BTW, judging from your new pics, this probably is the Brit pattern with a shortened blade (you can see where the ridge on the side of the blade originally would have come to the tip. I think it has wonderful character and I'm glad you gave it a good polish. Too bad we may never know for sure how it ended up in your neck of the woods, but the most likely case, I think, is as an import. The wear & tear came in it's long working life serving on a local merchant ship.