Sea cow used for Iban hilts

[VVV]

While writing the post above I got the response from the blade maker:

"Colours are so very typical for seacow; the yellow and the fainter brown / yellow are very typical.
The spongiosa is not as it would be with antler; this is bones spongiosa.
The quality of the reflections and polished surface is *absolutely* typical.

I will send you some pictures of hilts I made from seacow ( this was sold as "Steller´s Seacow) - made from the ribs of those animals.
Yours might be of a different species - anyway, I am absolutely sure. Of course I could be wrong, but this is my favourite bone material, and I happen to know it quite well.

I´ll be back with pictures, gimme a few days..
[...] the material I use is very very old and there are no CITES restrictions, as the Steller´s Seacow was obliterated in the 1800´s."

[fearn]

Hi Michael,

I'm telling you, violin and guitar cases were just made for carrying headhunting swords, especially on campus during summer.

Better though, it sounds like you have a real expert to tell you what you have. Great news.

Best,

F

[Mytribalworld]

Hi Michael,

I strongly doubt the whole Steller seacow story:

A: Its an artic living animal and of course its p[ossible that someone exported the bones to Borneo but actually I don't see any reason for that.
It should make the handle extra expensive while dearantler has almost the same effect.

B: the structure /grain of your examples are following the fork shape while a handle from seacow most likely should have all the grain in one line.

C: dearantler can be enourmous various in quality and color and it looks to me that ( the Kenya like) is carved quite near the spongeous centre.
If you come closer to that centre you have indeed more "bonelike" structure on the surface.

D: What I doubt if a animistic Dayak would easily accept to take a "dead ?'' bone from an animal he doesn't know and carve from that a handle that he carry with him the whole day.
Antler has a special reason as its one of the "fastgrowers" ( like hair, nails,tusks, horn) and so "loaded" with "living power",sometimes also special kinds of wood ( specially shaped roots etc).

E: About that human bone handles, maybe they are human and seacow as well, carved from the bone from an anourmous fat lady.....




Arjan

[VVV]

Arjan,

On Steller's sea cow he doesn't claim that mine are that, only sea cow. The dugong, the one of the living species closest to Steller's, is found outside Borneo.
I am not a "hilt-material guy" myself so I will probably put you into contact with one that is and then it would be interesting to read your conclusions.
Your words "animistic Dayak" reminded me of an idea I got when he first told me about it being sea cow (Alan, please don't read this because I am speculating based on documented folklore from neighbouring places )
If you are in the forest you want to have hilt material made from wood or a forest animal not to disturb the ruler of the forest. But if you are planning to join a pirate trip on the sea the ruler of the sea would be very angry if you had a hilt from a land based animal on your sword and ship (wood seems to be neutral being found both in the forest and drifting around on the sea).
This corresponds to the beliefs of the Malay fishermen who even had a special language to avoid mentioning land based animals when on the sea not to disturb the ruler of the sea. One version is the one studied (Annandale 1903) in Patani and Pahang where for instance a horse was renamed chehweh dras (= fishing language prefix + fast) and a buddhist monk chehweh kuning (prefix + yellow).

Michael

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by VVV

Arjan,

On Steller's sea cow he doesn't claim that mine are that, only sea cow. The dugong, the one of the living species closest to Steller's, is found outside Borneo.
I am not a "hilt-material guy" myself so I will probably put you into contact with one that is and then it would be interesting to read your conclusions.
Your words "animistic Dayak" reminded me of an idea I got when he first told me about it being sea cow (Alan, please don't read this because I am speculating based on documented folklore from neighbouring places )
If you are in the forest you want to have hilt material made from wood or a forest animal not to disturb the ruler of the forest. But if you are planning to join a pirate trip on the sea the ruler of the sea would be very angry if you had a hilt from a land based animal on your sword and ship (wood seems to be neutral being found both in the forest and drifting around on the sea).
This corresponds to the beliefs of the Malay fishermen who even had a special language to avoid mentioning land based animals when on the sea not to disturb the ruler of the sea. One version is the one studied (Annandale 1903) in Patani and Pahang where for instance a horse was renamed chehweh dras (= fishing language prefix + fast) and a buddhist monk chehweh kuning (prefix + yellow).

Michael

But that should include that most seadayaks never travelled the sea with their deerantler handled swords and that those with the seacow handled sword never saw their wife and kids on the land.
If I must choose between an angry sea and an angry wife...... Hmmmmm....

[VVV]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

But that should include that most seadayaks never travelled the sea with their deerantler handled swords and that those with the seacow handled sword never saw their wife and kids on the land.
If I must choose between an angry sea and an angry wife...... Hmmmmm....

Ha, ha, ha, not quite.
Please note that I only found sea cow hilts on the langgai tinggang (= sea dayak war swords), not the ilang (both war and utility swords).
In a way the hypothesis might also explain why you find some very high status parang with wooden hilts.
And as usual with folklore it can be quite local, just a small area. It might even be a requirement from the ship owners according to their beliefs.
But anyway I will try to find time later tonight to check some of my articles and books on Iban customs to see if I find something more about customs at sea.

Michael

[VANDOO]

IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY ANYTHING OTHER THAN DUGONG BONES WOULD BE USED AS THEY ARE THE ONLY MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP OF ANIMALS IN THE REGION AND WERE KNOWN AND HUNTED FOR FOOD. STELLER SEA COW BONES WOULD STILL BE AVAILABLE IN SOME NORTHERN LOCATIONS IN OLD TRASH HEAPS NEAR CAMPS OF WHALERS AND ESKIMOS. THE BONE WOULD NOT HAVE FOSSILIZED AND MAY STILL BE USED BY LOCAL TRIBES??
THE STELLER SEA COW BONES MIGHT BE A BIT LARGE FOR MANDAU HANDLES ANYWAY AS ADULTS WERE AROUND 30 FEET LONG. THERE ARE STILL REPORTED SIGHTINGS IN THE REGIONS WHERE THEY USED TO LIVE BUT NO CONFIRMATION OF ANY SURVIVORS SO FAR.
STELLAR SEA COW SKELETON

[fearn]

For modern hilts, there's a company that's making Alaskan ulus with "mermaid bone" aka Steller's Sea Cow bone. As with fossil mammoth tusks, the material is available. I don't know how far it ships, but I'd be unsurprised to see "mermaid bone" show up in any *modern* hilt.

As for traditional hilts, that's a different issue entirely.

F

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by VVV

Ha, ha, ha, not quite.
Please note that I only found sea cow hilts on the langgai tinggang (= sea dayak war swords), not the ilang (both war and utility swords).
In a way the hypothesis might also explain why you find some very high status parang with wooden hilts.
And as usual with folklore it can be quite local, just a small area. It might even be a requirement from the ship owners according to their beliefs.
But anyway I will try to find time later tonight to check some of my articles and books on Iban customs to see if I find something more about customs at sea.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I'm curious what you will find, I can image that Malay shippers had such requirements but I wonder if already we have problems with seeing the difference the shipper would and if the dayak would tell him the truth.

If the dayak themself had such requirements, I wonder how they should do that if transport on Borneo is mostly over the river.
should they make the difference between river and sea ? ( note that the villages in many cases of the big headhuntingraids where attacked from the sea and following the river upstreams)

other thing is ..do you have a pic of the whole Langgai with that Kenya like handle ? it would be interesting

Arjan

[VVV]

Thanks for publishing the picture of the sea cow skeleton!
It's easy to imagine that if you see such a skeleton on the beach you might think of a sea dragon, if that is a part of your world-view's probabilities.
In Hornbill and Dragon, by Bernard Sellato (1989), his, maybe a bit simplified, cosmology of the Dayak is that the Upperworld is the Hornbill and the Underworld the Dragon. On page 44 he writes "In the arts, other reptilian or aquatic animals - crocodiles, lizards, turtles, snakes, frogs, and fish - are equal to the dragon." On the same page he also claims "The Bornean dragon corresponds to the Indian makara water-monster..."
So why don't we see dragons on the parang hilts? Actually now and then you see a lizard hilt, even if it's quite rare (enclosed are 2 examples from Hornbill and Dragon). And below them is an example of a Makara on an Iban Jimpul from my collection. But these seem to be more of an exception than a rule.

Back to the hypothesis on if Malay beliefs somehow might have influenced Ibans when they started to travel by sea for their raids. I have used some quite old sources to investigate this because already in the late 1800's the British quenched those raids. Actually it was the same time that the Langgai Tinggang and the Nyabur were more commonly used as Iban war swords.
It is evident that the Ibans, who originally came from the inlands of Borneo, became pirating Sea Dayaks (instead of River Dayaks) first after they had contact with the coastal Malays of Sarawak. Here are some supports for this:

"The Dyaks of Sarebas and Sakarran, a brave and noble people, were taught piracy by the Malays who dwelt among them. These Dyaks were always head-hunters, and used to pull the oars in the Malay prahus for the sake of the heads of the slain, which they alone cared for. But, in course of time, the Dyaks became expert seamen. They built boats which they called bangkongs, and went out with the Malays, devastating the coast and killing Malays, Chinese, Dyaks, whoever they met with."
Sketches of Our Life at Sarawak, by Harriette McDougall (1882)

"The Sea Dyak's history likewise shows a growth of headworship parallel to the increasing importance of war. When they were mere agriculturalists. fighting only among one another over disputed ownership of land, they used to take the heads of their enemies slain in these battles; but it was not until the Malays taught them to grow rich by piracy that the passion for head-hunting became deeply rooted, and that they went on expeditions for the avowed purpose of getting heads."
The Influence of War and Agriculture upon the Religion of Kayans and Sea Dayaks of Borneo, by Margaretta Morris (1904).

Below is also enclosed a part copied from On the Wild Tribes of the North-West Coast of Borneo, by Lord Bishop of Labuan (1863) - Pasted Graphic 2.pdf.

The Lord Bishop also confirms the practice of secret languages among the Sea Dayaks - Pasted Graphic 3.pdf.

In The Relations Between Men and Animals in Sarawak, by Charles Hose; W. McDougall (1901) the authors confirm that the Iban have a lot of contact with the Malays and that this contact has influenced their belief system - Pasted Graphic 4.pdf.
They also give another reason why maybe an Iban would like to have something from a sea cow as a hilt and why it is so rare to see it - Pasted Graphic 5.pdf.

Michael

[VVV]

Too bad that my experiment with enclosing pdf files didn't work out as planned. But if you click on them you can read the copied texts.

Arjan, of course you are welcome to see any of my Langgai Tinggai whenever you feel like it but let's do it in private to focus on the thread theme.
I agree on the sea-river part and that's what I try to sort out above. Most expeditions were on the rivers but some were also on the open sea to more distant places. Those expeditions were usually performed together with Malays and other more experienced seafarers.

Michael

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

Actually only a 5 minutes walk from the University. But no way I will walk around with an old head hunting sword, first among 1000's of museum visitors and then just as many at the campus. It's enough with those ninja wannabees that you read about in the newspapers now and then running around with practice iai-to and scaring people.

Michael, i am not suggesting to strap the sword on and walk around with it. The mandau can be easily packaged to conceal what it is. In the proper box no one is going to know what's inside.
When i was new to collecting i once brought a Moro kris to the curator of the Metropolitan Museum of Art's armory division. This, of course, required travelling with the well wrapped kris on the very crowded NYC subway system as well as through the streets and into the museum. No one was the wiser. I called the museu first and made an appointment. The curator was very happy to meet with me and explain what i had.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by David

Michael, i am not suggesting to strap the sword on and walk around with it. The mandau can be easily packaged to conceal what it is. In the proper box no one is going to know what's inside.
When i was new to collecting i once brought a Moro kris to the curator of the Metropolitan Museum of Art's armory division. This, of course, required travelling with the well wrapped kris on the very crowded NYC subway system as well as through the streets and into the museum. No one was the wiser. I called the museu first and made an appointment. The curator was very happy to meet with me and explain what i had.

David, of course I know by now how to transport swords in public areas. Actually I have two sword bags especially made for this. And when I carry more than 5 swords I use my scuba diving bag. I just don't feel like doing it because I don't doubt myself that the hilt material is different than on all my other Dayak parang.

Michael

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

David, of course I know by now how to transport swords in public areas. Actually I have two sword bags especially made for this. And when I carry more than 5 swords I use my scuba diving bag. I just don't feel like doing it because I don't doubt myself that the hilt material is different than on all my other Dayak parang.

Well Michael, if that's your reasoning why didn't you say so to begin with? I'm glad you are so sure on this one and do not feel the need for the opinion of anyone with actual academic knowledge of such things. I admire your faith.

[VVV]

Thanks for your understanding David,

I just tried to be a bit more "diplomatic" about it earlier.

Michael

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by VVV

Ben, aka Dajak who posted the thread above that Gustav linked to, just mailed me.
He wrote that he later had showed the mandau to a surgeon who told him that it was human bone and might be from an arm. So maybe there is at least one mandau with a hilt made of human bone after all out there...

Michael

I see Tim's remark has been deleted completely.
Maybe this post can be censorred too

[asomotif]

Michael,

I am pretty impressed by all the theories and citations from old books and publications that you can produce on this item.

Hopefully we can see the pictures of the steller seacow bone hilts in this thread. As seeing and recognizing that material will be quite interesting.

I have one hilt in my collection that has a distinctively different colour.
Maybe your relation can take a look at the pictures of that hilt ?

Best regards,
Willem

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Michael,

I am pretty impressed by all the theories and citations from old books and publications that you can produce on this item.

Hopefully we can see the pictures of the steller seacow bone hilts in this thread. As seeing and recognizing that material will be quite interesting.

I have one hilt in my collection that has a distinctively different colour.
Maybe your relation can take a look at the pictures of that hilt ?

Best regards,
Willem

Willem, you live almost next to the Seacowbone-indificationcenter( beside de Kunsthal) ......why not ask them ?

Arjan

[VVV]

Isn't the Dugong ID center in Rotterdam known to be one of the best in Europe?

Michael

PS Btw, yours doesn't look like dugong (based on your pictures anyway). But it is a very nice example of one of the rare dragon hilts!

[tom hyle]

The porous part seems to be narrow, rather than round/wide,as at the ball of a femur. I suspect it might be a piece from the curve of a jawbone, if indeed it is not an antler. On whales the jawbone ("pan bone") is said to be the only bone suitable to carving and making of useful objects.

[tom hyle]

The second hilt shown seems to show some irregularities of the original substance surface, between pommel and grip, that look like those of an antler. The denseness of the porous core is more suggestive of antler than of bone to me. It looks like antler.
BTW, elk is only solid at the tips. All antlers and horns are solid at the tips, though for varying lengths.
Different types of bone can be better or worse for these uses. Sheep bone is, for instance, flaky and peely.
Cattle, camel, and jiraffe are especially favoured for traditional bone goods. No camels or giraffes on Borneo, of course.
Given the fairly immediate obviousness of digesting beef, I often speculate that the popularity of humans associating with cattle has more to do with their particularly useful hides, bones, and horns than their meat.
Point is that there's a lot more to which bone to use than availability. Bones of animals can vary similarly to bones of trees, from specie to specie.

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by VVV

Isn't the Dugong ID center in Rotterdam known to be one of the best in Europe?

I visited the NMR (Natuurkundig Museum Rotterdam) yesterday and only found dolfins and other small whales on display.
They probably have a dugong skeleton in their collection, but the conservator Mr Moeliker is on holidays.

Anyway, these skeletons can be found on the WWWeb, and personally if I check the bones, I can not find any bone (yet) that would be suitable to carve a hilt in te shape of mandau hilts.
So if anyone has a serious suggestion which bone is suitable to carve a mandauhilt, I would be much obliged.

Best regards,
Willem

[tom hyle]

BTW, there has been quite a trade in arctic ivory (etc.) since at least the 18th and aparently somewhat world wide. I have an Indonesian statue of a rhinoceros made from what is clearly walrus tooth, for instance. So geography is no barrier to a material being used, or even popular, especially in seagoing cultures.
I find the sea/land division idea fascinating. Somehow seems to link to the tradition of not carrying kris across water?

[tom hyle]

Note that the porous core is not exposed at the top (ie. butt) side of the pommel hook, but only where it is carved down into its center. If this were a piece sawn from a longer bone, would this be the case? Seems like antler. Whatever it is, it seems it is pretty close to its original surface shape, and should be able to be matched up with an example. It fits up to an antler pretty well. Can we get (individual) pics of the candidate sea cow bones, with scale? Can we get a pic of a rib end? Does it have a forked or L-curved end?

[tom hyle]

BTW, I would be very careful taking any antique to any official person of any kind for identification or any other reason, especially curators or academics you don't personally know. To some of them we private collectors are all dirty looters, and there is a host of reasons they could decide to take your antique, or even charge you with criminal charges; not just CITEs but national treasure type laws, weapon laws, who knows....but then I'm autistic, so moving thru human culture is quite a dark and risky journey for me, and being turned down is clearly not the worst that can happen when asking for help.

[VANDOO]

THE UPPER END OF RIB BONES WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE IS A LIKELY SHAPE FOR MANDAU HANDLES. THE RIB IS MORE ROUND THERE NOT FLAT AND THE END IS LARGER AND HAS A LARGE KNOB TO CONNECT TO THE SPINE. AS THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF RIBS IN EACH SKELETON YOU WOULD HAVE SEVERAL SIZES AND SHAPES TO WORK WITH AS WELL AS A GOOD SUPPLY OF MATERIAL IN A SHAPE READY TO BE WORKED MORE EASILY. SORT OF LIKE THE FORK IN AN ANTLER.

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE UPPER END OF RIB BONES WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE IS A LIKELY SHAPE FOR MANDAU HANDLES. THE RIB IS MORE ROUND THERE NOT FLAT AND THE END IS LARGER AND HAS A LARGE KNOB TO CONNECT TO THE SPINE. AS THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF RIBS IN EACH SKELETON YOU WOULD HAVE SEVERAL SIZES AND SHAPES TO WORK WITH AS WELL AS A GOOD SUPPLY OF MATERIAL IN A SHAPE READY TO BE WORKED MORE EASILY. SORT OF LIKE THE FORK IN AN ANTLER.

Did you ever have handled the bones or ribs from a sea cow or seen from very close ?

The bones are looking to me as very spongeous ( more than the ribs) , so don't know if that material should be usefull. In Japan they seem only to make carvings from the ribs. There are enough ribs for sale online but I never see the bones......

see also that the structure ( rib bone)has some enclosements what you can see the best in the first pic.






There's also another thing and that's the reputation of the Dugong. It seems that in the Philippines people believe they are bringing bad luck,while in parts of Indonesia they are considered reincarnations of women.

[VVV]

Arjan,

The German blade smith also confirmed that he uses the ribs for his hilts (see above) so I assume those, and the more expensive tusks, are the parts to use for hilts.
On the wikipedia page you quoted it also says that the tusks are used for sword handles in the Gulf states.
All over the archipelago you will find keris hilts made from dugong, gading laut, but I am not sure if it's only the tusks or some other parts [ribs] are use for this too? So maybe "in parts of Indonesia they [Dugong] are considered reincarnations of women" isn't such a bad thing anyway?
The full wikipedia quote for Philippines is: "In the Philippines dugongs are thought to bring bad luck, and parts of them are used to ward against evil spirits." This also seems useful for a sword or knife hilt...

Michael

PS If you do a search for "dugong" on this forum you will see several reference pictures of dugong hilts.
Here is an interesting dugong related thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=dugong

[tom hyle]

hmmm pics are good thanks. None of them show a hooked structure suitable to carve these hilts from, where there is clearly dense surface bone around the pith on all sides (ie including the butt side) of the hook.

[T. Koch]

Hi Vikingsword,

My name is Thor and I am a new member here. I hope you will all forgive me for practicing a bit of necromancy on this old thread, but I thought I'd try contributing with something to the forums for my first post here. I must also confess to having been lurking here for more than a year now and in that time I have been truly humbled by the level of knowledge on here. I've learned so much already and It is indeed an honor being in the company of you gentlemen!

I am a bachelor in biology, now undertaking my masters degree in human parasitology. To put food on the table meanwhile, I work for our Environmental Ministry here as part of the CITES Management Authority team where I am now on my 5th year. One of my many tasks at work , is looking at peoples' antiques in order to asses whether the materials used warrants the need for a CITES-permit/-certificate, i.e. if it's from a species contained within the CITES Appendices.

Basically I look at a lot of horn, bones, ivory etc. from different source species and this is where I think I might be of value to this, at this point albeit elderly, discussion.

Considering sea cows (order Sirenia) there are two extant families: Manatees, (Trichechidae) and the dugongs (Dungongidae), the latter consisting of only one extant species: The dugong, Dugong dugon. Now, the manatee species are confined to Afrcia and the New World, so they are conveniently excluded from the discussion at hand. The extant dugong however is dispersed over South East Asia, and is as such a likely candidate for source material.

One feature of the skeleton of the species in the family Dugongidae is the increased density, known as pachyostosis, of the rib bones. The weight of which the animal uses while swimming to keep on 'right keel', so to speak. It is exactly the density of this bone which makes it suitable for manufacture into tools and other items. Personally, the only Dugongid I've seen processed like this is the now extinct Steller's Sea Cow (Hydrodamalis gigas), the distribution of which was far more Northern than the extant dugong. As already mentioned, this is also the species, of which the ribs are utilized today by modern knife makers. The inuit tools I have personally seen from Steller's Sea Cow, had all been manufactured by Russian Inuit peoples, which have had a tradition for utilizing this species as part of their sustenance.

Now whether or not the Dayak likewise has/had a tradition for utilizing the extant dugong, local to Borneo, is beyond my area of expertise. Here I think it might be better consulting an anthropologist with a specialty in these people. On a further note, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if one of our members here, would be able to answer that: What do/did the Dayak catch and eat?

A last thing I would like to get around when on the topic of Sirenids, is that of alleged 'sea cow ivory'. We know from G.W. Steller's own notes that the Steller's Sea Cow didn't have any teeth, so that again leaves our extant dugong. Personally I have never seen, in photo or real life, any dugong ivory. Or let me rather put it this way: I have never seen any ivory which could not reasonably be explained as stemming from a different species of mammal.
Furthermore I have my doubts if there is any real ivory to be used on a dugong at all. While the dugong do not grow any canine teeth, the males do have two 'tusk-like' incisors, however these are fairly small, certainly compaired to tusks of other classic ivory-species, but also compaired to the objects they are supposedly carved into, i.e. sword and dagger handles.
To clarify, it is not that I believe that dugong 'tusks' was never a source of ivory, it is just that I have never seen anything to convince me otherwise. In the face of new evidence I am certainly anticipating a change of my position.

I submit to you here a picture of the skull from a Dugong dugon: http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.ed....jpg/view.html

Here one of a dugong skull in relation to a human male: http://www.customs.gov.au/site/content8949.asp


This concludes my introduction on these forums. I hope you found the above interesting – if you indeed made it all the way here to the end – and I apologize in advance for any linguistical or grammatical errors on the way. English is not my native language.

I am looking much forward to my time here with you gentlemen, thank you!



All the best, - Thor Koch