D&L's Kris-Por mi Lei Y Por mi Rei

kino · 25th February 2011, 12:16 AM

Dave, I can't recall if it was inscripted on the other side of the blade.
Sorry for the delay.

Dom · 25th February 2011, 02:08 AM

I don't understand the meaning of the sentence,
even if I may translate it
it's in Spanish language
POR MI LEI Y POR MI REI either FOR MY READ AND FOR MY KING

à +

Dom

kino · 25th February 2011, 02:22 AM

According to a Portugese to English dictionary Lei, means Law.
Could it have been inscribed by a Portugese not a Spaniard?

DaveS · 25th February 2011, 04:37 AM

Dom: I had it translated by two spanish speaking people. According to both
It translates to "FOR MY LAW, FOR THE KINGS LAW". The inscription is exactly the same on both sides. I think the blade would date to the middle
1800s. The ganja is of the older style, almost straight. A little different type
of handle wrap that i haven't seen before. Hard to tell if the crest of the
ivory hilt was made that way or if it has been broken at some point. The
patina is the same, so i think if it's a break then it's an old one.....Dave.

DaveS · 25th February 2011, 04:47 AM

Albert: Did you see this kris up at Eugene last year? As i recall there was
some speculation that the inscription was in Portugese rather than Spanish.
Don't remember if it was you or someone else.......Dave.

Battara · 25th February 2011, 06:27 AM

Nice piece. Are there laminations in the blade?

Dom · 26th February 2011, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

Dom: I had it translated by two spanish speaking people. According to both
It translates to "FOR MY LAW, FOR THE KINGS LAW".

you are correct
it's because it's in old Spanish, that my translation was roughly
as French, I didn't master too well

à +

Dom

DaveS · 26th February 2011, 05:55 AM

Jose: I haven't etched it yet but i think it might be, given it's age. It had a
very light polish on it when i got it so any laminations are hard to see. Do
you think it might go back to middle 1800s? The asang is swaasa, but flat
and very plain. The blade could have been a captured one that a Spanish
soldier intended to take home as a war trophy. Apparently, he didn't make
it home!!!!!.........Dave.

DaveS · 26th February 2011, 06:01 AM

Dom: That's okay. You do a great service for everyone on the forum with
your translations. I have a really nice Ethiopean gurade with a lot of Coptic
inscriptions on it that i would like to have translated. Any ideas?.....Dave.

kai · 26th February 2011, 09:11 AM

Hello Lonna & Dave,

Congrats, another very nice kris!

I'm not convinced that this blade got forged during the "archaic" period (18th c. in Cato's classification hypothesis) - looks more like a first half of 19th c. blade to me. However, it has unusual features which probably make any dating attempt difficult.

I doubt that this is a Moro blade which got inscribed after capture by a Spanish soldier. IMHO the langet-like feature at the base of the blade suggests that this kris got crafted from an European blade by welding on additional material at the gangya area. I'd guess that an etch will clear up the construction.

We've had a few other kris/sundang with recycled European blades - will try to dig out those threads. I'd also suggest to run it by the European weapons subforum to hopefully get more clues on the blade.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 26th February 2011, 09:31 AM

Kaskara/European blade
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5982

VOC blade
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6379

carlos · 26th February 2011, 02:08 PM

Beautiful kris!!! POR MI LEI Y POR MI REI. In spanish now was POR MI LEY Y POR MI REY and in english FOR MY LAW AND FOR MY KING.
Congratulation
Carlos

fernando · 26th February 2011, 03:52 PM

I don't think this inscription is written in either old Spanish or old Portuguese.
The use of the i in these cases is a 'modernism'; only 'recently' it replaced the y in Portuguese; in Spanish (Castillian) the y prevails.
The word por may be either Spanish and Portuguese. The word mi will be only Spanish.
On the other hand it doesn't make sense the use of the y in the middle of the phrase and the use of the i in Lei and Rei; it is either one or the other.
It could be that the guy who wrote this inscription intended to write in Spanish; but he was familiar to 'modern' Portuguese.
... hope i made myself understood

.

Dom · 27th February 2011, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

I have a really nice Ethiopean gurade with a lot of Coptic
inscriptions on it that i would like to have translated. Any ideas?.....Dave.

Hi Dave
Coptic ... here in Paris

not too much easy to found people could read that very old (pre-Islamic) writing,
excepted Coptic priests, or Ethiopian people ... may be ??

by the way, give me some acute pics,
when I get to see my Coptic friends
I would see with them, but this will take time
because we have very few here,
one (1) in Paris, and the second in Lille ... 190 miles far ...
most of our friends are Muslims ...

à +

Dom

DaveS · 27th February 2011, 03:03 AM

Kai: It's possible you could be right about a Spanish blade being welded to
a moro handle and gangya. We are going down to Pasadena next weekend
for a big three day knife show. After things settle down when we have been
home for a few days then i'll have a chance to do an etch and we can find
out whats going on.........Dave.

DaveS · 27th February 2011, 03:07 AM

Dom: I found out that there is a Coptic Church about 25 miles from here.
If i can't find out anything, then i can send you some pictures.......Dave.

25th February 2011, 12:16 AM	#1
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	D&L's Kris-Por mi Lei Y Por mi Rei Dave, I can't recall if it was inscripted on the other side of the blade. Sorry for the delay. Attached Images

26th February 2011, 03:52 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A cocktail I don't think this inscription is written in either old Spanish or old Portuguese. The use of the i in these cases is a 'modernism'; only 'recently' it replaced the y in Portuguese; in Spanish (Castillian) the y prevails. The word por may be either Spanish and Portuguese. The word mi will be only Spanish. On the other hand it doesn't make sense the use of the y in the middle of the phrase and the use of the i in Lei and Rei; it is either one or the other. It could be that the guy who wrote this inscription intended to write in Spanish; but he was familiar to 'modern' Portuguese. ... hope i made myself understood .

25th February 2011, 02:08 AM	#2
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	I don't understand the meaning of the sentence, even if I may translate it it's in Spanish language POR MI LEI Y POR MI REI either FOR MY READ AND FOR MY KING à + Dom

25th February 2011, 02:22 AM	#3
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	According to a Portugese to English dictionary Lei, means Law. Could it have been inscribed by a Portugese not a Spaniard?

25th February 2011, 04:37 AM	#4
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Dom: I had it translated by two spanish speaking people. According to both It translates to "FOR MY LAW, FOR THE KINGS LAW". The inscription is exactly the same on both sides. I think the blade would date to the middle 1800s. The ganja is of the older style, almost straight. A little different type of handle wrap that i haven't seen before. Hard to tell if the crest of the ivory hilt was made that way or if it has been broken at some point. The patina is the same, so i think if it's a break then it's an old one.....Dave.

25th February 2011, 04:47 AM	#5
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Albert: Did you see this kris up at Eugene last year? As i recall there was some speculation that the inscription was in Portugese rather than Spanish. Don't remember if it was you or someone else.......Dave.

25th February 2011, 06:27 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Nice piece. Are there laminations in the blade?

26th February 2011, 05:55 AM	#8
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Jose: I haven't etched it yet but i think it might be, given it's age. It had a very light polish on it when i got it so any laminations are hard to see. Do you think it might go back to middle 1800s? The asang is swaasa, but flat and very plain. The blade could have been a captured one that a Spanish soldier intended to take home as a war trophy. Apparently, he didn't make it home!!!!!.........Dave.

26th February 2011, 06:01 AM	#9
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Dom: That's okay. You do a great service for everyone on the forum with your translations. I have a really nice Ethiopean gurade with a lot of Coptic inscriptions on it that i would like to have translated. Any ideas?.....Dave.

26th February 2011, 09:11 AM	#10
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Lonna & Dave, Congrats, another very nice kris! I'm not convinced that this blade got forged during the "archaic" period (18th c. in Cato's classification hypothesis) - looks more like a first half of 19th c. blade to me. However, it has unusual features which probably make any dating attempt difficult. I doubt that this is a Moro blade which got inscribed after capture by a Spanish soldier. IMHO the langet-like feature at the base of the blade suggests that this kris got crafted from an European blade by welding on additional material at the gangya area. I'd guess that an etch will clear up the construction. We've had a few other kris/sundang with recycled European blades - will try to dig out those threads. I'd also suggest to run it by the European weapons subforum to hopefully get more clues on the blade. Regards, Kai

26th February 2011, 09:31 AM	#11
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Kaskara/European blade http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5982 VOC blade http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6379

26th February 2011, 02:08 PM	#12
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	Beautiful kris!!! POR MI LEI Y POR MI REI. In spanish now was POR MI LEY Y POR MI REY and in english FOR MY LAW AND FOR MY KING. Congratulation Carlos

27th February 2011, 03:03 AM	#15
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Kai: It's possible you could be right about a Spanish blade being welded to a moro handle and gangya. We are going down to Pasadena next weekend for a big three day knife show. After things settle down when we have been home for a few days then i'll have a chance to do an etch and we can find out whats going on.........Dave.

27th February 2011, 03:07 AM	#16
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Dom: I found out that there is a Coptic Church about 25 miles from here. If i can't find out anything, then i can send you some pictures.......Dave.