Another Civil War Knife Sold On Ebay

Robert · 24th February 2011, 07:00 PM

Well, I just won this "ANTIQUE OLD CIVIL WAR WESTERN BATTLE KNIFE ULTRA RARE" on ebay.
I has always amazed me how the Philippines seemed to be involved in suppling arms for the American Civil War.

When I first found this item I contacted the seller and tried to explain to them that this was not from the American Civil War or for that matter from the U.S. at all, but as usual I was ignored. I decided to go ahead and place a bid on it anyway and hope for the best and as luck would have it when the auction ended I was very pleased to find that I had won. The knife looks to me to be of late 1890's to early 20th century Katipunan era. Most likely from Luzon and is very well made with a Carabao horn grip that still has most of the twisted brass wire still intact. It comes with what looks to be the original leather sheath with nice tooling, though it is showing its age. The overall length of the piece is 14 inches with a 9-1/2 inch blade. Because the piece looks to be made more for stabbing than for cutting would this be called a dagger or just a knife? The pictures below are from the auction. Any comments on this would be very welcome.

Robert

Dimasalang · 24th February 2011, 07:10 PM

Im starting to really hate you now.

HAHA JK
Great find! Awesome Philippine/American Civil War piece. haha Gotta give it up to you Robert, you dig through ebay like no other.

I catch myself at times doing the same, but it is a very tedious task to do so many searches day in and day out!

May I ask how much you won this one for? You can PM me if you wish to keep it private. My luckiest mislabeled find on ebay was a Visayan Dagger. It was labeled as WWII Japanese Dagger. Seller claimed his Grandfather was fighting in the Philippines and killed a Japanese soldier and took it from him...so this whole time they thought it was a Japanese weapon. I was the only bidder and got it for $10.

It is nothing too detailed or crazy, but the scabbard and all the traditional looks and designs are there. I never posted or shared it here yet...maybe Ill post it up later.

Robert · 24th February 2011, 07:35 PM

Hello Dimasalang, I sent you a PM. Yes, please do post pictures of your "Japanese knife" as I as well as others would definitely like to see it. Most of the items that I win on ebay are usually mislabeled. If they weren't, I probably would not be able to afford them.

Robert

Battara · 25th February 2011, 05:22 AM

Nice piece! Congrats! Yes it is Luzono.

Dimasalang, don't hate him but love him, get to know him (and then steal his toys!

).

migueldiaz · 25th February 2011, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

I has always amazed me how the Philippines seemed to be involved in suppling arms for the American Civil War.

Well what do you know? Now wonder we ran out of blades to use during the subsequent war

Congrats! And like Dimasalang, I also feel like shouting "argh!!"

On the other hand, it's always comforting to know that it's now in very good hands.

It's definitely a Luzon piece (peened tang, twisted wire on hilt, blade profile, etc.), as am sure most can tell. One of its 'cousins' is with me (pic of sword attached). That one I have has horn hilt and twisted brass wire also.

As to the local name for a dagger, in Luzon it's called punyal (from Spanish puñal) or daga (from the Spanish daga, for dagger also).

migueldiaz · 25th February 2011, 05:33 AM

The thing am still finding out about these blades is the 'humpback' feature at the spine (the right end of the red dotted line in the att. pics).

Am not sure if this humpback feature points to a particular province or region in Luzon. Alternatively it can be a style that was broadly used. Am still not sure either way. Perhaps more pics can be posted in this thread so we put our minds together

p.s. - the pic with dark background is from erik farrow. the one with very light background is from artotec of ebay. thanks.

migueldiaz · 25th February 2011, 05:39 AM

Pics of other examples of humpback Luzon sundang (or tabak, and tabak is used if it is a war sword; while sundang is a generic word that can mean both a utility blade and a war sword), are attached.

Robert · 25th February 2011, 08:10 AM

For anyone thinking of pilfering my toys you will first have to get by my well trained attack animals. The cat will strategically place himself between your feet while you walk tripping you at every move while the basset will slobber on your hands making it imposable to grip any sharp pointy objects. Together the are a formidable team who have thwarted any and all attempts of anyone trying to remove my toys from the premises.

Below is a picture of this mighty team waiting to spring into action at any given moment.

Robert · 25th February 2011, 08:29 AM

Migueldiaz, As for the 'humpback' feature you are referring to, I have a few examples that I will post in the mourning as it is late here and I am on my way to bed and sleep. I think all of the examples that I have with this shape are from Luzon but I will check and if there are others from any different locations I will post them as well.

My thanks to all who have commented so far on my latest addition.

Robert

P.S.
I know it looks like I am on the forum 24 hours a day but I just leave my computer on most of the time. It saves me alot of time this way.

migueldiaz · 25th February 2011, 11:02 AM

Thanks in advance, Robert!

Lew · 25th February 2011, 03:22 PM

Well I am sure when I get to the Baltimore show their will be quite a few tables with Philippine knives being passed off as civil war and revolutionary war trophies

. It amazes me how dumb or even dishonest some of these sellers are. Even when you confront them and tell them what it is they refuse to believe you

. Btw very nice snag congrats!

carlos · 25th February 2011, 05:22 PM

Congratulaions Robert!! this a very good example of " civil war knives"

, normally I look for this type of knives in Ebay but in this case I didn´t find this!!
Congratulations again
best regards
carlos

Sajen · 25th February 2011, 08:37 PM

Hello Robert,

congratulations to this find!

I have thought that I am good to detect the sleepers/bargains by e-bay but you are the king!

Best regards,

Detlef

Robert · 26th February 2011, 03:11 PM

Migueldiaz, Now I know who it was that won that beautiful Luzon sword.

I even started a thread right after the auction had ended asking if anyone here on the forum had won it. I am very glad that it was you that won the bid on it (knowing that it has a good home now) but would have been happier if it had been me.

It is by far the nicest one of this style that I have ever seen and in such great condition too. I WANT IT, I WANT IT, I WANT IT !!!

I will be posting pictures of the blades that I have that are similar to the humpbacked ones you posted later today. I would have had it done already but yesterday was a bad one for my family (medical problems with a Grandson) and my wife and I did not not return home until late last night. Everything is better today and he will be fine.

Lew, I have noticed that with the economy being down it seems that a greater number of these than usual are "accidentally" being listed as American Revolution or Civil War relics (probably in the hopes of selling them for exaggerated prices). A very sad thing to see. The person that I won this item from told me that after the auction was over she had been contacted by a person claiming that they had one just like it and that it was in fact an 1850 "Spanish California Dagger" and worth over $500.00. I am not sure why anyone would do something like this after an auction was over but I have been hearing some pretty strainge things lately.

Jose, Carlos and Detlef, Thank you all for your kind words. Ebay does still produce a few good items at reasonable prices now and then. It was by pure chance that I found this dagger as well as the other items that I have won of late. My biggest problem (like everyone else) is having the funds to afford them if and when they are found.

Again I would like to thank everyone who has replied for their interest and kind words.

Robert

migueldiaz · 27th February 2011, 03:37 PM

Robert, thanks for the note. Please rest assured that on an envy scale, my avid desire to see your fine collection is at least a hundred times more than what you felt

Thanks in advance too, for the proposed posting of humpback sundangs

Robert · 27th February 2011, 09:17 PM

Migueldiaz, here are a few poor pictures (it has been raining here for the last three days) of some that have the humpback feature that you show in your above pictures. I tried taking these with and without a flash but the ones without the flash you could not even tell what was in the picture. The blades that look shiny are a lot darker than they look in these pictures, especially the one in the last picture. I hope that they will be of some help to you.

Robert

carlos · 27th February 2011, 09:30 PM

Thanks Robert fot this type of pictures !! Your collection is fantastic and I,m very happy when I see pictures like this!!
Thanks again
carlos

Battara · 27th February 2011, 09:50 PM

I was told by several Filipinos that the bottom 2 are Pampangan.

Just food for thought (or thought for food).

migueldiaz · 28th February 2011, 07:33 AM

Robert, thanks indeed for the pics!

Carlos, same (feeling) here

Battara, I tend to agree. I also saw a pic (here at EAAF? at eBay?) of a similar old tabak with "Pampanga" inscribed on it. I'll post it here when I find it. Thanks.

Robert · 2nd March 2011, 08:46 PM

Well, it has arrived and I am VERY happy with the condition it is in. These pictures are after putting a little mink oil on the scabbard and a very light cleaning and a little ren wax on the punyal itself.

migueldiaz · 2nd March 2011, 10:00 PM

Sweet!

Sajen · 2nd March 2011, 10:14 PM

Hello Robert,

very nice addition to your interesting collection!

Regards,

Detlef

Dimasalang · 4th March 2011, 07:48 PM

Its ugly. Doesn't complement your collection well enough...I think you should sell it. I'll gladly get rid of it for you...I'll even pay shipping.

Battara · 4th March 2011, 08:09 PM

The piece is absolutely complete - no restoration needed!

Robert · 4th March 2011, 08:27 PM

Migueldiaz, Detlef and Jose, Thank you all for your kind words and complements on this punyal and my collection. Sometimes I get lucky and find something nice like this but it seems anymore that it is getting harder and harder to find them. As Jose said this one is complete and needs no restoration work at all.

Dimasalang, I know it's pretty ugly but I have already put it on the wall with its brothers, so being lazy I will have to keep it where it is as I haven't the energy to take it back down.

Thank you though for your very kind offer to take it off my hands.

Robert

24th February 2011, 07:00 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Another Civil War Knife Sold On Ebay Well, I just won this "ANTIQUE OLD CIVIL WAR WESTERN BATTLE KNIFE ULTRA RARE" on ebay. I has always amazed me how the Philippines seemed to be involved in suppling arms for the American Civil War. When I first found this item I contacted the seller and tried to explain to them that this was not from the American Civil War or for that matter from the U.S. at all, but as usual I was ignored. I decided to go ahead and place a bid on it anyway and hope for the best and as luck would have it when the auction ended I was very pleased to find that I had won. The knife looks to me to be of late 1890's to early 20th century Katipunan era. Most likely from Luzon and is very well made with a Carabao horn grip that still has most of the twisted brass wire still intact. It comes with what looks to be the original leather sheath with nice tooling, though it is showing its age. The overall length of the piece is 14 inches with a 9-1/2 inch blade. Because the piece looks to be made more for stabbing than for cutting would this be called a dagger or just a knife? The pictures below are from the auction. Any comments on this would be very welcome. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 25th February 2011 at 04:04 AM.

25th February 2011, 05:33 AM	#6
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	The thing am still finding out about these blades is the 'humpback' feature at the spine (the right end of the red dotted line in the att. pics). Am not sure if this humpback feature points to a particular province or region in Luzon. Alternatively it can be a style that was broadly used. Am still not sure either way. Perhaps more pics can be posted in this thread so we put our minds together p.s. - the pic with dark background is from erik farrow. the one with very light background is from artotec of ebay. thanks. Attached Images

25th February 2011, 05:39 AM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Pics of other examples of humpback Luzon sundang (or tabak, and tabak is used if it is a war sword; while sundang is a generic word that can mean both a utility blade and a war sword), are attached. Attached Images

25th February 2011, 08:10 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	For anyone thinking of pilfering my toys you will first have to get by my well trained attack animals. The cat will strategically place himself between your feet while you walk tripping you at every move while the basset will slobber on your hands making it imposable to grip any sharp pointy objects. Together the are a formidable team who have thwarted any and all attempts of anyone trying to remove my toys from the premises. Below is a picture of this mighty team waiting to spring into action at any given moment. Attached Images

25th February 2011, 03:22 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Well I am sure when I get to the Baltimore show their will be quite a few tables with Philippine knives being passed off as civil war and revolutionary war trophies . It amazes me how dumb or even dishonest some of these sellers are. Even when you confront them and tell them what it is they refuse to believe you . Btw very nice snag congrats! Last edited by Lew; 25th February 2011 at 06:31 PM.

24th February 2011, 07:10 PM	#2
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Im starting to really hate you now. HAHA JK Great find! Awesome Philippine/American Civil War piece. haha Gotta give it up to you Robert, you dig through ebay like no other. I catch myself at times doing the same, but it is a very tedious task to do so many searches day in and day out! May I ask how much you won this one for? You can PM me if you wish to keep it private. My luckiest mislabeled find on ebay was a Visayan Dagger. It was labeled as WWII Japanese Dagger. Seller claimed his Grandfather was fighting in the Philippines and killed a Japanese soldier and took it from him...so this whole time they thought it was a Japanese weapon. I was the only bidder and got it for $10. It is nothing too detailed or crazy, but the scabbard and all the traditional looks and designs are there. I never posted or shared it here yet...maybe Ill post it up later.

24th February 2011, 07:35 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Dimasalang, I sent you a PM. Yes, please do post pictures of your "Japanese knife" as I as well as others would definitely like to see it. Most of the items that I win on ebay are usually mislabeled. If they weren't, I probably would not be able to afford them. Robert

25th February 2011, 05:22 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,257	Nice piece! Congrats! Yes it is Luzono. Dimasalang, don't hate him but love him, get to know him (and then steal his toys! ).

25th February 2011, 08:29 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Migueldiaz, As for the 'humpback' feature you are referring to, I have a few examples that I will post in the mourning as it is late here and I am on my way to bed and sleep. I think all of the examples that I have with this shape are from Luzon but I will check and if there are others from any different locations I will post them as well. My thanks to all who have commented so far on my latest addition. Robert P.S. I know it looks like I am on the forum 24 hours a day but I just leave my computer on most of the time. It saves me alot of time this way.

25th February 2011, 11:02 AM	#10
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Thanks in advance, Robert!

25th February 2011, 05:22 PM	#12
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 746	Congratulaions Robert!! this a very good example of " civil war knives" , normally I look for this type of knives in Ebay but in this case I didn´t find this!! Congratulations again best regards carlos

25th February 2011, 08:37 PM	#13
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,126	Hello Robert, congratulations to this find! I have thought that I am good to detect the sleepers/bargains by e-bay but you are the king! Best regards, Detlef

26th February 2011, 03:11 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Migueldiaz, Now I know who it was that won that beautiful Luzon sword. I even started a thread right after the auction had ended asking if anyone here on the forum had won it. I am very glad that it was you that won the bid on it (knowing that it has a good home now) but would have been happier if it had been me. It is by far the nicest one of this style that I have ever seen and in such great condition too. I WANT IT, I WANT IT, I WANT IT !!! I will be posting pictures of the blades that I have that are similar to the humpbacked ones you posted later today. I would have had it done already but yesterday was a bad one for my family (medical problems with a Grandson) and my wife and I did not not return home until late last night. Everything is better today and he will be fine. Lew, I have noticed that with the economy being down it seems that a greater number of these than usual are "accidentally" being listed as American Revolution or Civil War relics (probably in the hopes of selling them for exaggerated prices). A very sad thing to see. The person that I won this item from told me that after the auction was over she had been contacted by a person claiming that they had one just like it and that it was in fact an 1850 "Spanish California Dagger" and worth over $500.00. I am not sure why anyone would do something like this after an auction was over but I have been hearing some pretty strainge things lately. Jose, Carlos and Detlef, Thank you all for your kind words. Ebay does still produce a few good items at reasonable prices now and then. It was by pure chance that I found this dagger as well as the other items that I have won of late. My biggest problem (like everyone else) is having the funds to afford them if and when they are found. Again I would like to thank everyone who has replied for their interest and kind words. Robert Last edited by Robert Coleman; 26th February 2011 at 04:10 PM.

27th February 2011, 03:37 PM	#15
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Robert, thanks for the note. Please rest assured that on an envy scale, my avid desire to see your fine collection is at least a hundred times more than what you felt Thanks in advance too, for the proposed posting of humpback sundangs

27th February 2011, 09:17 PM	#16
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Migueldiaz, here are a few poor pictures (it has been raining here for the last three days) of some that have the humpback feature that you show in your above pictures. I tried taking these with and without a flash but the ones without the flash you could not even tell what was in the picture. The blades that look shiny are a lot darker than they look in these pictures, especially the one in the last picture. I hope that they will be of some help to you. Robert Attached Images

27th February 2011, 09:30 PM	#17
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 746	Thanks Robert fot this type of pictures !! Your collection is fantastic and I,m very happy when I see pictures like this!! Thanks again carlos

27th February 2011, 09:50 PM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,257	I was told by several Filipinos that the bottom 2 are Pampangan. Just food for thought (or thought for food). Attached Images

28th February 2011, 07:33 AM	#19
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Robert, thanks indeed for the pics! Carlos, same (feeling) here Battara, I tend to agree. I also saw a pic (here at EAAF? at eBay?) of a similar old tabak with "Pampanga" inscribed on it. I'll post it here when I find it. Thanks.

2nd March 2011, 08:46 PM	#20
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Well, it has arrived and I am VERY happy with the condition it is in. These pictures are after putting a little mink oil on the scabbard and a very light cleaning and a little ren wax on the punyal itself. Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 2nd March 2011 at 10:09 PM.

2nd March 2011, 10:00 PM	#21
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Sweet!

2nd March 2011, 10:14 PM	#22
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,126	Hello Robert, very nice addition to your interesting collection! Regards, Detlef

4th March 2011, 07:48 PM	#23
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Its ugly. Doesn't complement your collection well enough...I think you should sell it. I'll gladly get rid of it for you...I'll even pay shipping.

4th March 2011, 08:09 PM	#24
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,257	The piece is absolutely complete - no restoration needed!

4th March 2011, 08:27 PM	#25
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Migueldiaz, Detlef and Jose, Thank you all for your kind words and complements on this punyal and my collection. Sometimes I get lucky and find something nice like this but it seems anymore that it is getting harder and harder to find them. As Jose said this one is complete and needs no restoration work at all. Dimasalang, I know it's pretty ugly but I have already put it on the wall with its brothers, so being lazy I will have to keep it where it is as I haven't the energy to take it back down. Thank you though for your very kind offer to take it off my hands. Robert