Plug bayonet & Left hand dagger

Trond · 24th January 2011, 11:08 PM

I have a couple of blades I know next to nothing about. Both are in astonishing good condition, even the grip on the plug bayonet. It seems to never even has been put in a muzzle.

At first I believed the plug bayonet might have been assembled at a later date, taking the blade from a sword, but studying it closely it seems to be "one genuine piece". Could anybody come up with suggestions on country and approximate time?

The dagger is a beauty with almost impossible workmanship. The center of the blade and the sides of the ricasso are perforated in a intricate pattern and the V groves has hardly any diameter at the bottom. The sides go down and just straight up again. I am not able to understand how they managed to do it. Again - probable country and time period?

Trond

fernando · 24th January 2011, 11:27 PM

Hi Trond,
Fascinating pieces.
Could you post a close up picture of the plug bayonet blade, so that the inscription can be read ? Could it be Latin ?
Can you also tell us the blade length ?
By the way, do you know R.D.C. Evans book, called THE PLUG BAYONET ?
It is a fine work.

celtan · 25th January 2011, 01:20 AM

V ery B eautiful B oth : )

I think the latin motto roughly translates into

"Good is [so] for [those] Good and Bad, Bad (Evil?) is neither for [those] Good or Bad"

M

Trond · 25th January 2011, 08:44 AM

Here are a couple of pictures of the text. I have "hardened" the pictures slightly.

Trond

celtan · 25th January 2011, 03:18 PM

Aghh... it's so beautiful it makes me salivate...

Now we have:

"Good is [so] for [those] Good and Bad, Bad (Evil?) is neither for [those] Good or Bad"

" Fight for Fatherland, Altars (God) and Hearth (Home)"

Reminds me of the spanish military motto

"Por Dios, por la Patria y el Rey" (For God, Fatherland and King)

Good reasons to rot under 6 feet of soil and push up lilies...

fernando · 25th January 2011, 07:33 PM

The PUGNO PRO PATRIA legend was a 'fashionable' patriotic motto in use in the 16th-17th century in several European countries.
A pity this is not enough to figure out the origin of this magnificent plug bayonet

.
Let's see if someone pops up with positive data.

No ideas about the left hand dagger, Gentlemen?
No close up pictures available, Trond ?

Trond · 25th January 2011, 09:54 PM

The speck on the cross guard seems to be - a speck... and no stamp.

BTW How does one edit the signature on this forum.

Trond

fernando · 25th January 2011, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trond

... BTW How does one edit the signature on this forum.

Trond

Hi Trond. i have just sent you a PM.

Matchlock · 26th January 2011, 02:04 AM

Hi Trond,

Based on the grounds of Celtan's and 'Nando's brilliant inputs, I just wish to provide my opinion on dating these two items.

The plug bayonet can be safely dated to ca. 1700-1720 as it is already brass mounted instead of iron, and the quillon finials are no longer shaped as turnscrew and hammer for the barrel pins. The blade is recycled from a 16th c. sword and cut down respectively to dagger size.

The left hand dagger is of ca. 1580-90's date.

Both are preserved in optimum condition.

Best,
Michael

Trond · 26th January 2011, 09:10 AM

Thanx! They are evidently European, but does somebody have any idea about what country they the come from?

Trond

Matchlock · 26th January 2011, 05:06 PM

Hi Trond,

I am quite sure that the plug bayonet is French or Italian, re-using a 16th c. German blade, while the dagger doubtlessly is of German (Saxon?) origin.

Best,
Michael

Trond · 26th January 2011, 08:47 PM

Thanx again, I have a serious lot to learn on blades.

Trond

celtan · 27th January 2011, 11:20 PM

Brilliant? Not even in the darkest of nights!

: )

(of course, I meant Nando's...)

: P

Thank you kindly Trond, we are here to learn from each other.

Take care

Manuel Luis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Trond,

Based on the grounds of Celtan's and 'Nando's brilliant inputs, I just wish to provide my opinion on dating these two items.

The plug bayonet can be safely dated to ca. 1700-1720 as it is already brass mounted instead of iron, and the quillon finials are no longer shaped as turnscrew and hammer for the barrel pins. The blade is recycled from a 16th c. sword and cut down respectively to dagger size.

The left hand dagger is of ca. 1580-90's date.

Both are preserved in optimum condition.

Best,
Michael

24th January 2011, 11:08 PM	#1
Trond Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 30	Plug bayonet & Left hand dagger I have a couple of blades I know next to nothing about. Both are in astonishing good condition, even the grip on the plug bayonet. It seems to never even has been put in a muzzle. At first I believed the plug bayonet might have been assembled at a later date, taking the blade from a sword, but studying it closely it seems to be "one genuine piece". Could anybody come up with suggestions on country and approximate time? The dagger is a beauty with almost impossible workmanship. The center of the blade and the sides of the ricasso are perforated in a intricate pattern and the V groves has hardly any diameter at the bottom. The sides go down and just straight up again. I am not able to understand how they managed to do it. Again - probable country and time period? Trond

25th January 2011, 01:20 AM	#3
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	V ery B eautiful B oth : ) I think the latin motto roughly translates into "Good is [so] for [those] Good and Bad, Bad (Evil?) is neither for [those] Good or Bad" M Last edited by celtan; 25th January 2011 at 02:49 AM.

26th January 2011, 02:04 AM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Trond, Based on the grounds of Celtan's and 'Nando's brilliant inputs, I just wish to provide my opinion on dating these two items. The plug bayonet can be safely dated to ca. 1700-1720 as it is already brass mounted instead of iron, and the quillon finials are no longer shaped as turnscrew and hammer for the barrel pins. The blade is recycled from a 16th c. sword and cut down respectively to dagger size. The left hand dagger is of ca. 1580-90's date. Both are preserved in optimum condition. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 26th January 2011 at 05:02 PM.

24th January 2011, 11:27 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Trond, Fascinating pieces. Could you post a close up picture of the plug bayonet blade, so that the inscription can be read ? Could it be Latin ? Can you also tell us the blade length ? By the way, do you know R.D.C. Evans book, called THE PLUG BAYONET ? It is a fine work.

25th January 2011, 08:44 AM	#4
Trond Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 30	Here are a couple of pictures of the text. I have "hardened" the pictures slightly. Trond

25th January 2011, 03:18 PM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Aghh... it's so beautiful it makes me salivate... Now we have: "Good is [so] for [those] Good and Bad, Bad (Evil?) is neither for [those] Good or Bad" " Fight for Fatherland, Altars (God) and Hearth (Home)" Reminds me of the spanish military motto "Por Dios, por la Patria y el Rey" (For God, Fatherland and King) Good reasons to rot under 6 feet of soil and push up lilies...

25th January 2011, 07:33 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The PUGNO PRO PATRIA legend was a 'fashionable' patriotic motto in use in the 16th-17th century in several European countries. A pity this is not enough to figure out the origin of this magnificent plug bayonet . Let's see if someone pops up with positive data. No ideas about the left hand dagger, Gentlemen? No close up pictures available, Trond ?

25th January 2011, 09:54 PM	#7
Trond Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 30	The speck on the cross guard seems to be - a speck... and no stamp. BTW How does one edit the signature on this forum. Trond

26th January 2011, 09:10 AM	#10
Trond Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 30	Thanx! They are evidently European, but does somebody have any idea about what country they the come from? Trond

26th January 2011, 05:06 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Trond, I am quite sure that the plug bayonet is French or Italian, re-using a 16th c. German blade, while the dagger doubtlessly is of German (Saxon?) origin. Best, Michael

26th January 2011, 08:47 PM	#12
Trond Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 30	Thanx again, I have a serious lot to learn on blades. Trond