Fossil Molar Talisman Research Needed

[Battara]

Greetings!

I have heard of fossil molar being used for its talismanic properties in keris and other Indonesian pieces. The problem is I can't find any research on the topic. Can you folks stir me in the right direction for documentation and research please?

[A. G. Maisey]

I don't know of any "research", but I've handled the raw material I know how its found, where its found, how its worked, what its deficiencies are what the price of raw material is, what the cost of working it is, etc, etc, etc.

I also know it is damned unstable and something that you think is a perfect item can develop cracks, chips, splits even when kept in a protected environment.

What do you want to know?

[cedric Le Dauphin]

Hi! Everybody,

Dear allan
Not interferring, I'd love to know the regions where theses 'fossils' can be found.
Best regards

[Jean]

This subject was raised in another thread and I got some interesting information from my Javanese friend from Yogyakarta who trades this materials and I would like to share it with you in order to stimulate the discussion:
According to him, there are 2 types of fossil elephant/mamoouth molar, namely the hard one and the soft one, and only the soft type can be used for making kris hilts or warangkas. One possible interpretation (uncontrolled opinion only) could be that the hard fossil type is older than the soft one due to mineralization?
Also according to him the materials comes from Sumatra (from fossil or more recently dead elephants?) and since recently also from Russia (Siberia) where a lot of frozen mamooths can be found (not fossil ones since they were perfectly preserved under the ice or frozen ground). The Russian molar materials is worked in Bali especially.
I attach a picture of the raw material, which has a yellowish colour with white and darker stripes, and a sample of a finished Javanese hilt & warangka. In order to enhance the colour contrast, some traders dye the pieces by dipping it into a potassium permanganate solution which has a purple colour. Upon contact with air, the unstable permanganate compound is chemically reduced to manganese oxide which has a brown colour and is stable. I attach a picture of such a dyed piece, so the difference in colour between some pieces would not be due to their age as I wrongly said earlier but to a dying treatment.
I personally wonder whether these pieces are actually fossil ones or not, or may be both?
Best regards
Jean

[Alam Shah]

Hi Jean,
Thanks for the info.. your source, is also a friend..

Hi Alan,
I would like to know how we can tell the difference between fossil molars and non-fossil molars? How did molars (geraham) got into use as hilts and what is the talismanic beliefs or properties?

I've seen it used as hilts on keris, kris (kalis), badik.. etc.. but so far, none that pre-date 19thC, imho..

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

How did molars (geraham) got into use as hilts and what is the talismanic beliefs or properties?

I've seen it used as hilts on keris, kris (kalis), badik.. etc.. but so far, none that pre-date 19thC, imho..

This is also what I want to know. Is there any research on this or just folklore. I understood that among it's talismanic properties is protection against bullets and the evil eye. However, I have not seen any documentation.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, there is a lot of material coming into Bali from other countries, most especially from Canada.

The mammoth ivory from there has been used by custom knife makers for many years before it was exported into Bali. It is horribly unstable stuff, and the custom knife industry uses some sort of resin infusion process that turns it into good usable material. As both the ivory and the molars are used raw in Bali it is beautiful in the gallery, will pass customs, and two years down the track in a display cabinet will very probably develop heavy cracking. I say "very probably" because I cannot guarantee it will happen with every piece, but it has happened with every piece that I have.

As to the Indonesian raw material, I have handled pieces that came from the Sangiran fossil beds, and I have seen pieces sold that came from Sumatera. I have seen a lot of newly carved hilts that have come from Sumatra. They are horribly expensive. My guess is that they are carved with rotary drills like old time dentists used. This type of technology was used in Surabaya 30 years ago, notably by one of the all-time big-deal purveyors of keris who sold principally into the Jakarta market and in Europe.

I've also seen a lot of hilts and wrongkos that were produced by Jogja craftsmen, but I have not seen any keris fittings from this material produced by Solo craftsmen.

Probably the first recent productions using geraham I saw in about 1988. In the 20 years prior to that I did not see any geraham hilts or wrongkos for sale in Central Jawa.

Prior to the time when geraham began to appear in the Central Jawa markets I had seen one Balinese wrongko that I believed to be genuinely old, and perhaps three or four hilts:- one in an old Australian collection, one in the Musium Radyo Pustoko in Solo, and I've added the other one or two for any I might have forgotten. That during the period from about 1954 to about 1988.

I know of no rule of thumb that can be used to differentiate between fossil molar and new molar. I saw a couple of new molars that had come from an elephant that had died about 6 months previous in Solo and been buried , I think, at Jurug. To me it looked exactly the same as the fossilised stuff. Once the material has been turned into a finished article I would not have the faintest idea how to differentiate, but I'm sure the carvers could, simply by the way in which it works.

It is important to note that in Central Jawa and especially in Solo, if you ask where fossils offered for sale come from, they will almost invariably come from somewhere outside Jawa. This is because the authorities have cracked down hard to even the micro level on the sale of fossils illegally taken from the Sangiran fossil beds. If you believe everything you're told, nothing comes from Sangiran any longer.


I do not know how, when, where nor why geraham, either fresh or fossil was first used as a material for keris. Based on the couple of genuinely old pieces I've seen, my guess is pre-WWII, and not in Jawa.


I have never heard any mention of talismanic properties associated with geraham, except that it is favoured by Dewi Duit, and because of this favour, is very good for trade.

In respect of talismanic qualities.

In my experience, if you ask for a talismanic quality for something, you will be provided with one.

In Indonesia, and most especially in Jawa, if you are a paying customer, or somebody with some level of authority, particularly if you're a bule or somebody else from outside, and you ask a question that seeks after knowledge, you'll nearly always get an answer. Whether that answer is correct or not is another question.

[cedric Le Dauphin]

Dear Alan,
Thanks for all these info.
Any info on sites of archeological sites of elephant remains or mammouth remains within our realm?

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm sorry Cedric, but what do you mean by "within our realm" ?

I do not understand your question, but if I did, I probably would not be able to supply an answer, I have no knowledge of this sort of thing at all.

[VANDOO]

THE FOSSIL TEETH I SAW BEING USED IN BALI AND ELSEWHERE WERE SAID TO HAVE COME FROM JAVA. IT WAS MORE STABLE THAN TEETH I HAVE SEEN COMMING FROM MANY OTHER LOCATIONS. THE ONE FROM JAVA WAS THE TOOTH OF A STEGODON A TYPE OF MASTODON. MAMMOTH, MASTODON AND EXTINCT ELEPHANT FOSSILS ARE WIDESPREAD I EVEN FIND THEM HERE WHERE I LIVE. THE TUSKS AND TEETH HERE ARE BRITTLE AND NOT SUITABLE FOR MUCH. THE ENAMEL ON THE TEETH COULD BE USED FOR TAILSMAN OR JEWLRY BUT NOT FOR A KERIS HANDLE.
PICTURE OF PARTIAL SKULL OF STEGODON TRIGONOCEPHALUS
AND 3 PICTURES OF A SINGLE STEGODON TOOTH FROM JAVA MEASURES 10.5 X 5.5 X 3 INCHES. ITS THE KIND I SAW BEING CARVED IN BALI.

[Jean]

I attach pictures of fossil teeth which I got in Sangiran (near Solo) some 15 years ago, they are too small for making a hilt and may not come from a mammoth at all. I think that this site was extensively excavated and is highly controlled so I doubt that fossil teeth are still available from this location and used for making artefacts, but it was probably the case in the past.
I attach a picture of a Jogja kris in my collection with the hilt & waranga made from elephant molar (from Sumatra?), I bought it 5 years ago and the materials is still strong, as I said I think that it may not be that old so the organic binder in the tooth is still present and avoids it to be too brittle.
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

There is still a lot of material coming out of Sangiran, Jean. Possibly not from the regulated areas, but every time there is heavy rain fossils are uncovered, and when the creeks and rivers running through the area rise, they uncover fossils in the creek banks, which the local people harvest as soon as the water level drops. Its all highly illegal of course, but like most things illegal, its only illegal if you get caught.You've only got to walk around the local markets to see evidence of what is found.

[Battara]

So what I am hearing is the use of fossil molar ivory is a recent phenomenon in Indonesia, right?

[VANDOO]

THE 3 KERIS PICTURED ARE RECENT BUT I HAVE SEEN A FEW EXAMPLES IN OLD POSTS ON THE FORUM THAT SEEMED TO HAVE MORE AGE. I HAVE SEEN IT USED ON SOME PHILIPPINE WEAPONS AS WELL BUT IT IS MORE RARE. SO I WOULDN'T JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION THAT ALL ARE RECENTLY MADE.
THESE STEGODON FOSSILS WOULD BE AT LEAST 11 THOUSAND YEARS OLD AND MOST LIKELY OLDER AS THE MAMOTH AND MASTADON BECAME EXTINT AROUND THEN.
I CAN'T IDENTIFY THE MATERIAL IN THE FIRST PICTURE BUT THE MATERIAL USED ON THE KERIS AND THE 3 FRAGMENTS APPEAR TO BE FROM THE SPECIES OF STEGODON FOUND IN JAVA. THERE HAS BEEN INTREST IN FOSSIL TEETH SINCE ANCIENT TIMES SO IT IS VERY LIKELY TO HAVE BEEN USED. SUCH TEETH HAVE BEEN REFERRED TO AS DRAGONS TEETH AND MAGICAL POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO THEM AND HAVE BEEN USED IN MEDICINE AND AS TAILSMAN FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
SO USE ON ANCIENT WEAPONS IS A POSSIBILITY WHERE STABLE MATERIAL COULD BE FOUND. I COULD ONLY FIND ONE PICTURE OF A MORO SWORD USING IT AS A POMMEL.
THE PATTERN IN THE STONE IS DETERMINED BY THE DIRECTION IT IS CUT IN. I HAVE A SQUARE BLOCK OF JAVA STEGODON AND THE PATTERN IS DIFFERENT ON ALL 6 SIDES, SO THERE CAN BE QUITE A LOT OF VARIATION EVEN IN ONE TOOTH. THERE ARE MANY OTHER KINDS OF FOSSIL ELEPHANT TEETH AS WELL AS TITANOTHERE AND OTHERS SO THERE ARE A LOT OF VARIATIONS POSSIBLE. BUT FINDING GOOD STABLE MATERIAL IS A PROBLEM. MOST OF THE FOSSIL IVORY CARVED IN BALI INTO PENDANTS ECT. ARE FROM SIBERIA OR ALASKA MOSTLY MAMMOTH TUSK IS USED.

[Battara]

Well I agree with you Barry - I have a barong with this molar ivory. However, I don't have any information on this so I thought there would be more written on this use in the keris world since they use it more often.

[Battara]

Since I originally started this thread, I found finally found one mention in one source from George Frederick Kunz in his book Ivory and the Elephant in Art, in Archaeology, and in Science, 1916, p348:

“The molar of an elephant has been found in the island of Luzon, Philippines. This was probably brought thither from India. On the island of Mindanao a tooth of Stegodon trigonocephalus mindanaoensis was discovered. This genus stands between the mastodon and the modern elephant, although more nearly resembling the latter. This is the only instance on record of the finding of such remains in the Philippine Islands. The tooth was found in the north- western part of the island, and is at present in the Ethno- logical Museum at Dresden (No. 2679). The discovery was made by Semper, who described it as "a tooth of the war god Tagbusu of the Manobos, only to be worn by a Bagani (a priest or a prince); it was used as a talisman."
The tooth is bound with varicolored strings, so attached that it could be worn suspended.”

If you folks find any other information, please post or let me know.

I will also post this in the general weapons forum.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

Would I be correct in now assuming that the rare use of this material in pre-WWII days would be for the unusual and rare looks alone? Nothing in Moro or Filipino (much less Indonesia) lore mentions this material.

José, i really can't remember seeing too much of this material used in pre-WWII keris dress. It seems mostly to be a fairly contemporary usage. Somebody will now probably post some old keris hilt that they have provenance on for late 19th century or something, but when you say "rare use" i would have to agree that old examples of this material in keris dress is indeed rare and i would say that yes, that would explain why there is no lore to be found that is attached to it because most probably none exists.

[Battara]

Thank you David. I just edited my original last post and we must have posted at the same time.

Thank you anyway. You folks have been kind and helpful.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you David. I just edited my original last post and we must have posted at the same time.

Ah, i see you changes now. The reference is a bit misplaced on the Keris Forum however, since we only discuss Indonesian keris here. I am still not familiar with any talismanic application of such material there, though that doesn't mean there is none, of course. However, i was speaking solely of its use in Indonesian keris dress which in my understanding is a rather contemporary phenomenon.

[A. G. Maisey]

I think you're probably pretty right about contemporary use of this material David.

I don't know of any examples of really old hilts made of this stuff. I know of the existence of one hilt with some age, in the Radya Pustaka Museum in Solo, Jawa, but even that is likely to be post WWII, or maybe at most after 1900.

It is very difficult material to work, and I personally believe that none of this material was worked until craftsmen could get hold of dentist drills.

Similarly, I don't know of any talismanic properties attached to the stuff, and if any do surface, I'd put money on it that they're a pretty recent phenomenon.

[Gustav]

As I wrote once before in a similar thread, there is a Sumatran, possibly Minang Keris in the Moser-Charlottenfels collection, which has a huge showy molar hilt. It was collected before 1886. By huge I mean, it has a size, which don't allow to use it practically, like some balinese Bebondolan, often with Kendhit. The provenance of this Keris is absolutely sure.

There is another, very similar Keris in Amsterdam (or Leiden).

Sorry David, yet I am not sure if I understand the general sense of your lengty and somehow light-minded sentence:

"Somebody will now probably post some old keris hilt that they have provenance on for late 19th century or something, but when you say "rare use" i would have to agree that old examples of this material in keris dress is indeed rare and i would say that yes, that would explain why there is no lore to be found that is attached to it because most probably none exists."

I am confident, you are able to understand that old museum collections are OFTEN an invaluable help to pin down an object in a time-period.

Now to the material. I am absolutely not wondering myself about the fact, people in Central Java now or decades ago werent informed, what was going on somewhere in Sumatran highlands around 1880 regarding local beliefs on this strange and impractical, and rare material. I would say, they most probably didn't have the slightest interest in a thing, which were light years off from the refined esthetics of javanese courts.

It is known, that different wood species used for Keris hilts have different amount and kind of spiritual power in Malay beliefs. The same can be said about different sorts of iron.

It is obvious that a hilt made from a quite special material in a size, which don't allow to use it practically, has a power, which is beyound the practical use. Back in those days people wouldn't pick up a piece of rubbish, drill a hole in it and fit it on a Pesi. And if they would do it, they surely would find a "lore" about it.

Which sources do we have regarding Sumatran Minang beliefs from 1880-ties about minerals? Or - about Keris?

If there are no awailable, it is still quite reckless to say, there were no such beliefs, even more when lacking the available information about the physical objects from this time.

As students of Keris we most of the time are living with awareness of fact, that the most part of beliefs/information about Keris from its beginnings on are gone forever. What we know, is much less then the visible part of an iceberg.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

As I wrote once before in a similar thread, there is a Sumatran, possibly Minang Keris in the Moser-Charlottenfels collection, which has a huge showy molar hilt. It was collected before 1886.

Here is this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=molar
I am sure that the hilt of my keris have a good age but of course I can't give an exact date.
I think it will be pure speculation if a molar hilt is attached to a keris or also to a kris because it has some spiritual power or it was attached because it's value. But I agree with Gustav in all what he has written in above.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Gustav, we've been down this road before.

If we're talking about Sumatera, second half, 19th century, probably any definitive answer depends upon interpretation of local belief in the place where these hilts originated, at that time.

I don't have any answers in respect of this, and quite frankly, I don't have any idea where such answers might be found.

One of the repeated problems that I have found in trying to attach any reliable information in respect of belief in talismanic objects, or anything else for that matter, is that things that are often generally accepted as long standing beliefs passed down from the ancestors very often turn out to be no more than a generation or two old. Not only that, but individual informants often change direction depending on how they feel on the day.

In short, in respect of beliefs in Indonesia it is often best to qualify everything by statements that name the informant, place and time, something like:-

" on (date) I was told by (informant) that (this material) is regarded by (inhabitants of) this (place) as being very efficacious for
(whatever)" .

Ask the same person the same question next year the reply is likely to alter.

[David]

Well Gustav, i do apologize if you are having trouble understanding my statement. If it seems at all "lengthy" to you that is perhaps because i was sure to add words like "probably" in order to be sure no one considered my statement to be in any way a statement of "fact". I expressed an informed opinion bases upon my experience with available evidence. As such i would hardly consider such an opinion as being "reckless". I am also uncertain about your own meaning when you use the term "light minded", but i can assure you that i did indeed think about my opinion before posting it.
If you read my sentence carefully you will note that i never implied that an old version of this material used as a hilt does not exist, only that it is very rare. In fact i stated that somebody would probably now post one. So now you have fulfilled my statement by providing us with that example. No, it would not be the habit, then or even now i would image, for someone to simply pick up any old trash and create a hilt from it. Obviously the person who created the Sumatran hilt of which you speak valued the material when they made that hilt. Why would't they as we know it can be beautiful, especially when worked. But valuing a material does not necessarily equate to a belief that the material holds talismanic properties, nor does beauty alone. Of course the possibility exists that for the maker it did, but from my perspective it would be more irresponsible to assume that without more supportive evidence. Talismanic meaning in these cases usually is supported by some sort of community or societal agreement of the powers and uses of any given material. So if we saw more examples of these hilts from the time period i might be more likely to suspect that there was talismanic intent in their usage.
I hope that what is now indeed a lengthy response to your confusion clears up what i had originally believed was a fair simple expression of opinion.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Gustav, we've been down this road before.

If we're talking about Sumatera, second half, 19th century, probably any definitive answer depends upon interpretation of local belief in the place where these hilts originated, at that time.

Alan, I am sorry, but this is almost the same oppinion I stated in my post, which is absolutely understandable, becouse it is the relevant view on this subject.

Originally Posted by Gustav

Now to the material. I am absolutely not wondering myself about the fact, people in Central Java now or decades ago werent informed, what was going on somewhere in Sumatran highlands around 1880 regarding local beliefs on this strange and impractical, and rare material. I would say, they most probably didn't have the slightest interest in a thing, which were light years off from the refined esthetics of javanese courts.

Which sources do we have regarding Sumatran Minang beliefs from 1880-ties about minerals? Or - about Keris?

Where our opinions, or better, the information differs, is the fact, that oldest specimen you are aware of "is likely to be post WWII, or maybe at most after 1900", and I know of one, which is most probably collected before 1876 (1886 was my tiping mistake), absolutely sure before 1893. It makes a dentist drill as a premise for the emergence of hilts from this material rather implausible.

[VANDOO]

I AGREE THAT THE USE OF THIS FOSSIL MATERIAL IN BALI FOR MAKING KERIS IS A FAIRLY RECENT DEVELOPMENT. KNIFE MAKERS ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR SOME NEW MATERIAL TO MAKE KNIVES OUT OF THE MORE ATTRACTIVE OR EXOTIC THE BETTER. WHEN EVER A NEW MATERIAL IS FOUND EVERYONE WANTS SOME ESPECIALLY IF IT SELLS WELL. SO MOST OF WHAT WE SEE TODAY IS A REFLECTION OF THIS RECENT FAD AND THERE IS LIKELY NO OLD TRADITIONAL BELIEFS ,JUST RECENT STORIES MADE UP FOR SALES PURPOSES.

THE ABILITY TO CARVE STONE DOES GO BACK WAY BEYOND THE ADVENT OF THE DENTISTS DRILL AND VERY ANCIENT LAPIDARY TOOLS HAVE BEEN USED EVEN BY EARLY MAN IN THE STONE AGE. JADE ONE OF THE TOUGHEST STONES HAS BEEN CARVED IN MANY COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD SINCE ANCIENT TIMES. MANY ARTIFACTS HAVE BEEN FOUND MADE BY THOSE WHO HUNTED THE MAMMOTH OFTEN OUT OF BONE, IVORY AND TOOTH FRAGMENTS. SOME ARE JUST TOOLS BUT SOME ARE TALISMANS OR OBJECTS OF ART ASSOCIATED WITH THE HUNTERS AND THEIR PREY. TALES OF DRAGONS, GIANTS AND OTHER MYTHICAL GODS AND BEASTS ABOUND THRUOUT HUMAN HISTORY SO THESE BELIEFS AND SUPERSTITIONS HAVE EXISTED BUT ARE NOW VERY CHANGED AND MOSTLY LOST. MAN'S CURIOSITY ASSURES THAT STRANGE AND UNKNOWN OBJECTS WOULD HAVE BEEN OF INTEREST AND QUESTIONS ASKED AND STORIES MADE UP TO EXPLAIN THEM SINCE ANCIENT TIMES. SO SOME OF THESE STRANGE OBJECTS WERE LIKELY TO HAVE BEEN INCORPORATED INTO A HUNTER OR WARRIORS ATTIRE AND PERHAPS WEAPONS. THERE ARE LIKELY SOME EXAMPLES OF OLD SWORDS USING THIS FOSSIL MATERIAL FROM DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS AND REGIONS OF THE WORLD STILL AROUND BUT THEY WOULD LIKELY BE FEW IN NUMBER. FOR EXAMPLE I REMEMBER A POST ON MEDIEVAL SWORDS WITH A AMMONITE FOSSIL MOUNTED IN THE POMMEL ON THE FORUM.
LIKE THE CLASSIFICATION OF ANTIQUE NOW AT 100 YEARS OLD, THE CLASSIFICATION OF FOSSIL MAY HAVE A DATE BUT I THINK THEY EXAGGERATE WHEN THEY REFER TO ME AS A OLD FOSSIL.
MINERALIZATION OCCURS IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND AT DIFFERENT SPEEDS DEPENDING ON THE ENVIRONMENT. I WOULD CONSIDER A MAMMOTH TUSK FROM SIBERIA AND ONE FROM TEXAS BOTH FOSSILS. THE ONE FROM SIBERIA WOULD STILL BE CLOSE TO THE WAY IT WAS IN LIFE AND COULD STILL BE WORKED. WHILE THE ONE FROM TEXAS WOULD BE CHANGED TO MINERAL AND BE FRAGILE CHALK AND NO LONGER USEFUL. BOTH COULD BE THE SAME AGE BUT DUE TO THE ENVIRONMENT VERY DIFFERENT MATERIALS. PERHAPS SOME MUSEUM HAS A OLD STONE KNIFE FITTED WITH MAMMOTH IVORY OR TOOTH IN ITS COLLECTIONS, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

[A. G. Maisey]

One of my flaws is that I tend to suffer from the Mark Twain syndrome:- I lack the ability to express myself clearly in only a few words. I recognise that I suffer from this defect of ability, so it really is inexcusable when I dash off a few lines and expect others to understand clearly what I mean. But still, I do this from time to time, and it looks as if my post #23 is one such occasion.

Gustav:-

My statement as quoted was in support of your statement, it was not in opposition.

In respect of the time frame. The second half of the 19th century is not very long ago. Most especially in many areas of the Indonesian Archipelago the late 1800's could be regarded as being on the fringes of European influence. Even in Bali where a policy of active exclusion of outsiders was practiced, technology was not necessarily excluded from consideration.

My personal perspective is that probably any time after about 1800 most developed areas of the Indonesian Archipelago were already on the fringes of European technological culture. I do not regard the 1800's as a part of the distant past.

Barry:-

My mention of dentist's drills was a generality that was intended to imply all means known in the geographic area concerned for the carving of hard materials.

At the present time craftsmen in Jawa & Bali use all sorts of electric grinders:- die grinders, dremels, bench mounted electric drills, and of course dentists drills. These are examples I have seen in use, but undoubtedly other such tools exist that are put to use carving hard materials.

Historically in Jawa, Bali and I guess other parts of Indonesia, grinders that were powered by a long springy sapling and operated by a foot treadle were used for carving hard materials. This sort of power grinder goes back at the very least to early colonial times, but it was still being used in Bali in 1982.

If we are talking about a relatively settled area of the Indonesian Archipelago after the mid-1800's, then a treadle driven dentist drill is most certainly not out of the question as a tool that was available to advanced craftsmen.

Sumatera was not as developed in a lot of ways as was Jawa, but although thick forest made land transport difficult at that time, sea and river transport was freely available, and the centres of administration were well established.

If we consider Minangkabau lands in particular, what we know is that the men of the Minangkabau were traders who moved across established trade routes that took them far afield. The Minangkabau people are historically very well educated, very progressive and intellectually aggressive. Technology in Minangkabau lands would have been no stranger.

Yes, in various locations very hard materials have been carved at various times, and in the far distant past, but we are not talking about Mesoamerica, nor China, nor India. We are talking about the Indonesian Archipelago, and to the best of my knowledge the extremely lengthy techniques involved in carving crystal skulls and jade artefacts were not employed amongst the peoples of this geographic location.

There is another factor in play here that I'd like to address also.

This pervasive and oft encountered idea that all materials, all decorative motifs , all artistic endeavour must be endowed with some sort of talismanic quality.

This is simply not the case.

As Barry has pointed out, new and unusual, and attractive materials are frequently used in the production of artefacts merely for their own inherent qualities.

Motifs are developed and used for purely decorative purposes.

Certainly, traditional motifs may at one time have had some talismanic or symbolic intent, but with the passing of time this original meaning is lost and the motif continues to be used for purely decorative purposes. This applies in all cultures and societies that have moved past the developmental stage that saw the need for symbolic or talismanic intent.

I apologise for writing at length on such insignificant matters, but hopefully what I have written above will not be misunderstood.

[Battara]

Although I now have shifted to the regular ethnographic forum due to the Philippine reference, I still appreciate the help you folks have provided me. I agree that most for the fossil molar I have seen has been used for newer pieces.

[cedric Le Dauphin]

Hi! everyone
the mollar handle from the Radya Pustaka Museum in Solo, Jawa, Alan was talking about.