Help with (Moro Kris?)

[Yanni]

Dear Forum members,
This is my first post, so please forgive any transgressions.
I recently became aware of your forum during my search to identify what now I believe to be a Moro Kris sword.
You gentlemen seem to be very knowledgeable on these swords, and I would like to post a few pictures for identification.

The sword in question shows remarkable workmanship, has extensive engraving with silver inlay.
Unfortunately it had suffered a some damage before I got it, where it has lost about 40% of the silver inlay, the top of the grip is gone and only the wood remains of the sheath.

Any information on this sword will be greatly appreciated, along with any suggestions and pointers towards authentic restoration.

Thank you,
Yanni

[Rick]

Don't; looks fine just as it is !
Mindanao, Maranao ??
Can you provide better , sharper pictures ?

Right now I'm thinking this is a well made 20th Century piece from the okir work .

We really need to see the details in a sharp picture of the base of the blade ?

[Gavin Nugent]

Hello and Welcome Yanni.

Indeed that is a Moro Kris you have there, a nice looking piece too.
The Kris is certainly able to be rescued but by rescued, do not consider this to be in poor condition, it is not, it is in very good order and you will find many tips within these pages and many more members will be sure to offer their help.

I'm always happy to offer suggestions, and am only an email away ;-)
Gavin@swordsantiqueweapons.com

Gav

[Battara]

Greetings and welcome to our little forum!

What you have is a Maguindanao tribe kris. The hilt wrapping is later and not original to this. That indeed is silver inlay and I believe the blade to be a datu chieftain blade.

As far as restoration is concerned the silver inlay can be replaced. The hilt would be more difficult and I would have to have it in hand. That being said, I would think that the original hilt would have had at the minimum some okir design silver on it.

If you want to talk about restoration services, just email me at battara@hotmail.com

[kai]

Welcome to the forum, Yanni!

What's the blade length? And, yes, sharp pics would be good: try taking them from a larger distance (macro mode if available) and crop/resize/sharpen the pics afterwards if needed.

The missing pommel (possibly of the kakatua style) can be replaced. You could get a newly carved one from Mindanao or ask Jose to lend a helping hand...

While the scabbard is Maguindanao, the blade does look Maranao, doesn't it, Jose?

Regards,
Kai

[Yanni]

Thank you much for your reply...
I am posting some better pictures. They are a bit clearer than the first.
Unfortunately, this is the best I can do with my equipment and ability.

Dimentions:
Blade length from the cane wrapped handle to the tip is 24-1/4"
The blade width at he widest part of the guard is 5-1/8"
The cane wrapped handle is 3-1/2"

Again, thank you,

Yanni

[Battara]

Originally Posted by kai

While the scabbard is Maguindanao, the blade does look Maranao, doesn't it, Jose?

Well, I know that some in the past have said this, but in later years I have some to the opinion that this is actually Maguindanao. There seems to be a subtle difference between what we know as Maguindanao and Maranao ganga "faces". I have without question always seen this type of face on Maguindanao shoulderless scabbards, but not the Maranao. This is why Kai I have started saying that this ganga "face" is Maguindano. Otherwise, I would agree with you. They are indeed very similar.

As far as okir is concerned, I have noticed that both groups use the same okir style and forms. If it weren't for the other subtleties, I would not be able to tell the difference at all.

BTW - normally I would have given my email privately, but Yanni your private message section is not working for me.

[tunggulametung]

Yanni, this is a very nice kris, there's something beyond words on this piece, I like it a lot. May I ask a question, is it stained? or the dark color comes from oiled surface rust? Why I ask is because it is likely the 'original' stain from the owner, and I'm still looking on how a Moro kris is ideally stained/look. As for restoration, I personally suggest rattan binding for the sheath and nothing further, it might be originally metal binding but rattan is easier to do with more guaranteed result/more natural look for the sheath at this condition. The pommel can be replaced but will change the overall look so must be taken with care before deciding (I also have a kris which loosing a pommel). My suggestion on this probably you don't want to fix it for sometime say 1-3 months after the pommel being carved and see if they really goes along well.

@ Battara: please enlighten me on how you identify the hilt wrapping as later and not original to this please? I might want to re-wrap a kris hilt in the near future and thought that I like how it is done on this piece but your comment disturb me somehow. Probably not traditional design?

Thanks

[David]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

@ Battara: please enlighten me on how you identify the hilt wrapping as later and not original to this please? I might want to re-wrap a kris hilt in the near future and thought that I like how it is done on this piece but your comment disturb me somehow. Probably not traditional design?

I would be interested in knwing this as well José.
While this might very well not be the "original" wrap for this hilt (or even the original hilt for that matter) it looks to my eyes to be an indigenous job that has some age so i wouldn't change it at all. If it was a non traditional job done poorly by a Western collector i would change it, but i don't think that is the case here.

[Sajen]

Welcome to the forum Yanni,

agree with the others that this is a very nice kris. A careful restoration would be nice and I think that Jose can help you by this.

But I have the same question as Tunggulametung and David: Why do you think Jose that this isn't the original wrapping of the hilt? It seems to have a good age and patination.
Or do you think that it isn't the original hilt since the blade seems to be a datu chieftain blade and have had by time a other hilt?

Regards,

Detlef

[t_c]

Nice Kris Yanni.
I think I understand Battara's comment. IMHO this looks like a "field repair": "I don't have enough material or time to dress the handle properly, so I use what little I have." I think it's a nicely done older job, but I would image with all the work that went into the blade, the handle dress would be somewhat more lavish. The finishing touches of the handle don't match the craftsmanship of the blade.

[Battara]

I think t_c hit it on the head - old field repair. There is another rattan wrapping underneath and it is done in a different style of wrap than that above it.

It may also have had some pommel on top, although I don't think it was a kakatua pommel but something else, perhaps in silver and MOP that is often seen in these types of hilts. In fact, often there were strips of metal along the sides of this type of hilt as well. I would not be surprised if there were 2 that are covered in rattan at present.

And yes, everything on this, except the hilt, says datu class piece. Even on the scabbard there is evidence of metal bands that were once there.

[Yanni]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your replies.
I do wish to restore this piece and to keep in "spirit" with the creators.

Mr. tunggulametung,
I am leaning towards your suggestion of using cane binding for the sheath.
Perhaps Tung Oil for the finish?

As for the hilt / pommel issue...
Mr. Battara,
You are correct in that there are two thin (brass?) bands that are wrapped around the silver stirrups and are extending up the sides of the hilt.
They are broken off at the top and they appear that they were somehow attached to and were holding down the pommel.
I have attached two other pictures of the hilt and the cane wrapping.
From that angle you can see the remnants of those two metal strips.
If you look closer at the cane bindings, you can see that there is actually only one layer covering the wooden hilt. The "inner" layer is inter woven with the "outer" layer, and both are held together by a single strand of cane that is inter-woven between both layers.
It is really neat the way it was done.

As Mr. T_C stated, and I agree, "with all the work that went into the blade, the handle dress would be somewhat more lavish. The finishing touches of the handle don't match the craftsmanship of the blade."

What do you members imagine for this blade as a manner of dress for the hilt?
Would perhaps a one piece, minimally carved mahogany, with silver wire highlights? I would like to keep the same simple utilitarian profile.
Would something like this be true to the tribal region?

All opinions and recommendations will be valued and considered.

There is a story that goes with this piece, as to how I came to be in possession of it.
Around 2001 I went to a local flea market and I happened to look in to a bucket of old rusty tools and there it was. Laying in the bucket hilt down, with two pipe wrenches on top and under an assortment of screwdrivers, chisels, 2 hammers and a bent machete. The sheath was taped together with rotted duct tape and separate from the kris. The blade and hilt was covered with layers of dried mud and grime.
I asked the old lady selling it for some information.
She said that her husband brought it back from the war and he told her that it was old. It was in the garage for years. I think I paid $25.00 or $30.00 for it.
I honestly believed that I would find a rusty pile of junk under all of that muck, but the more I cleaned the bigger the smile on my face got.
There is still a thin layer of black oxidation on it, and a thin film of gun oil.
There are also faint hints of damascene shapes and lines just aching to get out.

You guys are great!

Thank you much,

Yanni

[tunggulametung]

Thanks Battara. I thought earlier that you are mentioning about the whole wrap which I can't understand, and 'field repair' sounds like a good guess as well.
Anyhow, pardon me for I have different opinion regarding the layers. I still in the impression that both layers were done much in the same time firstly because it will be difficult to add the second layer without firstly loosen the first layer-you know how tight these are. Then the different tone might be due to the 'second layer' exposed more to ones palm hence more patina. The 'unique' wrap on this piece might have something to do with baca-baca reinforcement, but could be a personal preference, something like 'I found it tighter this way', or 'I want to look different'. Of course I could be wrong on this, nothing more than just personal opinion. Thanks.

[David]

Originally Posted by Yanni

As Mr. T_C stated, and I agree, "with all the work that went into the blade, the handle dress would be somewhat more lavish. The finishing touches of the handle don't match the craftsmanship of the blade."

What do you members imagine for this blade as a manner of dress for the hilt?
Would perhaps a one piece, minimally carved mahogany, with silver wire highlights? I would like to keep the same simple utilitarian profile.
Would something like this be true to the tribal region?

All opinions and recommendations will be valued and considered.

My recommendation would be not to change the hilt dress at all. Whether this once had more elaborate dress or not is not the issue for me. If you choose to change this and make it more elaborate to match the work of the blade then you will be firstly, only guessing at what you think it should be judging from a place outside the original culture, and secondly, removing a perfectly authentic wrap done by the one-time original indigenous owner that is in good condition and should probably be preserved, not replaced. This hilt is fair more valuable to me "as is" from my personal collecting POV than any more "correct" restoration you might do as a collector. I cannot see the advantage to removing part of the history of this kris in order to present a more "perfect" envisioning of how we as collectors feel it might have once looked. There is a time for restoration and a time for preservation.

[Sajen]

I am in agreement with David about the hilt. It isn't apparently the hilt of the first issue of the blade but a piece of the history of this kris so when it would be mine I don't would change something.... this hilt will never have had silver bands in my humble opinion so I don't would touch it.
Since the blade will have a lamination like you told us I would sand it with very fine wet abrasive paper and would etch it.
A other thing is the missing silver-inlays, I think to restore this will be a good thing.

About the sheath: it would look nice with silver bands again since they have been there like it is still to seen. A care with wood oil or antique wax and a closing polish of the wooden part will bring out a good looking sheath.

But this is only my humble opinion, others will think different.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Oh, and please don't open the small band (mansala) at the hilt.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

My recommendation would be not to change the hilt dress at all. Whether this once had more elaborate dress or not is not the issue for me. If you choose to change this and make it more elaborate to match the work of the blade then you will be firstly, only guessing at what you think it should be judging from a place outside the original culture, and secondly, removing a perfectly authentic wrap done by the one-time original indigenous owner that is in good condition and should probably be preserved, not replaced. This hilt is fair more valuable to me "as is" from my personal collecting POV than any more "correct" restoration you might do as a collector. I cannot see the advantage to removing part of the history of this kris in order to present a more "perfect" envisioning of how we as collectors feel it might have once looked. There is a time for restoration and a time for preservation.

Absolutely !
I agree totally with David about this piece .

Let me put it this way; if you restore it you destroy its history and real worth.

I can't urge you strongly enough to leave it intact .

[Battara]

I will say with certainty that if you get it restored, at least get the missing inlay replaced and the blade restained (if not the scabbard too). It is a great blade.

[David]

I agree that it might look nice to restore the silver to the inlay of the blade. Here we have a case where there is just no question, the silver was once there and it would seem absolutely correct to replace it.
With the hilt we have a completely different case though. Yes, this is probably not the origin hilt. But you would need to make a number of assumption and outright guess if indeed you were to decide to "return" it to it's original splendor and at the same time you would be destroying the history of the kris itself.
From what i can see it does indeed look like the sheath once had metal bands and given the blade they may well have been silver. So if you wanted to go that route it might look OK. But it does seem to have one rattan band at the bottom and so it might look better as an ensemble piece to simply add a couple more rattan bands. Since rattan was the way this kris was maintained when last in service it seems most appropriate to restore with rattan. Try giving the wood a good cleaning/oiling and it should look pretty nice.

[Atlantia]

Lovely looking sword Yanni.
Congratulations, and welcome to the forums.
Regards
Gene

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

I agree that it might look nice to restore the silver to the inlay of the blade. Here we have a case where there is just no question, the silver was once there and it would seem absolutely correct to replace it.
With the hilt we have a completely different case though. Yes, this is probably not the origin hilt. But you would need to make a number of assumption and outright guess if indeed you were to decide to "return" it to it's original splendor and at the same time you would be destroying the history of the kris itself.
From what i can see it does indeed look like the sheath once had metal bands and given the blade they may well have been silver. So if you wanted to go that route it might look OK. But it does seem to have one rattan band at the bottom and so it might look better as an ensemble piece to simply add a couple more rattan bands. Since rattan was the way this kris was maintained when last in service it seems most appropriate to restore with rattan. Try giving the wood a good cleaning/oiling and it should look pretty nice.

My concern would be that the replacement silver would not match the original inlay.

Sterling ?

Not likely; the resulting patinas may well not match ...

As for the scabbard bands; if there is one rattan one extant I'd suggest adding another one or 2 of the same type .

This piece absolutely reeks of desperation and defiance to the last breath .
That is the story I read from this ensemble .

Here is an original wrap .

Overactive imagination ?

Maybe .

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Yanni,

As you can see there are many opinions on directions one can go, the choice is always yours and thus far the job you have done is a great job getting it to the condition that you have...
My thoughts are in line with others in being that the restoration on this should be limited. My thoughts are as follows;

1/Clean properly the inside of the scabbard housing
2/Rebind the scabbard pieces in rattan (There has been a good discussion about this recently and a big thanks to Steve for his photography binding steps in an old post being bought back to life). Oil the scabbard too, again, many choices of oil here.
3/The patterns in the steel can be bought out with chemicals or with the fine cleanings you are giving it, though chemicals are instant and more dramatic but neutralise neutralise neutralise.
4/The inlay, your call, but be sure to ensure all cut outs in the blade are perfectly cleaned if this is to be done. I wouldn't be too worried about any colour differences, a very light 0000 steel wool application will have it all shining should you venture down this road.
5/Leave the binding on the hilt as it is, it is ethnographically important.
6/Right or wrong I'd run with an small ivory pommel and have it intensely aged.

My opinion in most restorations bar a few is that the road with least resistance is always of preference and I wouldn't be too bothered with doing points 3 or 4 unless you really want to as a personal choice.
I currently have a pair of 18th century Jian with a master restorer. As the blades need straightening and a proper polish I am going to loose some inlay in a small rusted area that I want polished out. This I am asking to be re-chiseled and the gold replaced. An expensive exercise for me but my choice...just wishing to indicate anything can be done should you wish.
Regardless, enjoy the piece you have, it is nice even in its current condition.

Gav

[Battara]

I agree with Gav when it comes to the silver inlay. The patina differences are slight in my experience, regardless if it were pure silver or sterling. Both are available and was exists can be tested.

[Yanni]

Dear Forum Members,

Thank you all for your time and input.
It is very helpful.
I think I will repair the silver inlay on this piece.
I was reluctant in replacing the hilt because as some of you said it would take away from its history and character.

I have a jeweler friend that I can pump for knowledge and information on the metal inlay technique.
The cane wrap.... well I now wish that I paid more attention on my weaving and knitting classes way back when I was in kindergarten.
I have to decide on what weaving style I would like to use from the pics in this forum and then try to figure out how they did it.

I also would like to put a pommel to replace the one that is lost, however, I have no idea where to get one or at least obtain the native raw material to try and carve one out. Be it ivory or hard wood. (Bahi, Saru, Ebony)
It is not going to be perfect, but it should fit in with the whole "field expedient repair" theme of the hilt.

Again, any information on where I may be able to purchase the needed material will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you much,

Yanni

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Rick

Don't; looks fine just as it is !
Mindanao, Maranao ??
Can you provide better , sharper pictures ?

Right now I'm thinking this is a well made 20th Century piece from the okir work .

We really need to see the details in a sharp picture of the base of the blade ?

yo rick,
do you have a centerfold picture of this kris you posted, the one with okir work on the whole blade? is the gangya separated on yours?

[Rick]

Hi Ron,

I shot a couple of new ones .
No seperate ganja .

[David]

Is Yanni still with us? I am wondering now what ever happened to this beauty and still hoping that he didn't change the hilt wrap...

[Spunjer]

Thanks, Rick! I'm trying to compare it to a similar kris that I have, and like yours, there's no separation line on the gangya as well. I'm actually interested at the ukkil design on the blade, wondering if it's similar. I will take some photo of mine and will post it.

[ibeam]

Very Nice kris...

I am interested on the silver plate on the top of the guard. I have only seen a handful with this detail.

Are there any okirr/engraving designs on it??