Strange Shamshir in Wootz Shocker! (pictures)

Atlantia · 17th November 2010, 03:27 PM

LOL, I should have been a newspaper hack!
Here is a link to a discussion on a sword I've had for years:
Unusual Shamshir
Anyway, as was mentioned, it has a strange 'European' style blade with an Arabic Cartouche.
I've never really thought the blade was anything, which is why it's taken until now for me to get around to doing anything to it.
I think you'll agree the results are a bit of a shock.
Is this ladder pattern? It seems to have regular bands about a centimeter apart.

I'm scratching my head over this one! Help/comment appreciated!
Best
Gene

Aleksey G. · 17th November 2010, 04:26 PM

Gene, you are right man...thats pretty amazing.
Without visible wootz I would too peg this blade as a european/ east european with its wide single fuller and that type of a false edge being additional confirmations. The only thing that I would think twice about would be its drastic curve, euro blades dont usually curve to such degree.

Dude... pattern looks awesome, nice and crisp, high contrast, from limited pics looks pretty clean thruout the blade (no large imperfections)...beaut!!!
You know what will be even more of a shock: if you got time try to work on the guard.... what if its wootz as well? double shocker

Alex

RSWORD · 17th November 2010, 06:53 PM

If you are going to have a surprise, this is the kind to have! That is a very lovely, active pattern and it does have some ladder-like features. I can see the "rungs" on the edge but do they extend across the ridge line to the upper half of the blade? If they are regularly spaced and appear across the entire blade then I would say they were definitely manipulating the blade to make it a ladder pattern. Count them to. They often come to near 40. I agree with Aleksey that the crossguard may be wootz as well.

After this one, you may be tempted to go etch all of your blades!

kronckew · 17th November 2010, 07:03 PM

scratching that etch increased the value by a considerable factor.

what other wonders are within reach? only vinegar will tell....

Atlantia · 17th November 2010, 07:37 PM

Alex,

Thanks Mate, couldn't agree more! I didn't think for a second that this would be wootz. Condition isn't too bad, pattern on that side dissapears toward the end where there is light pitting. I'm just seeing what the other side (slightly better condition holds now

Rick,

I was hoping you'd come in on this as you specialise in unusual wootz.
So this is Persian I guess. The cartouche says Amal Kalb Ali, so work of Ali. But I saw one sold by Christies where the blade was inscribed: "in typical self-deprecating style 'amal kalb 'ali isfahani "work of the Dog" of 'Ali at Isfahan."
They also date that blade as 17thC, but I can't see this as being early, not with that shape. I'll count rungs in a bit

kronck,

LOL, too right! Just salt for my chips for a while.

Regards ALL!
Gene

TVV · 17th November 2010, 08:02 PM

With this hobby, I do not think there is anything nicer than etching a blade to reveal a nice pattern in the steel. Congratulations Gene, this sword went from very nice to truly wonderul. Good job on the etch too.

Regards,
Teodor

RSWORD · 17th November 2010, 08:31 PM

Before forming an opinion on the age of the blade would you share a picture of the cartouche?

Gavin Nugent · 18th November 2010, 12:17 AM

Great news Gene, awesome find...and to think this treasure has gone unnoticed for some time just sitting there....Congrats, something we all would love to own.

Gav

Atlantia · 21st November 2010, 06:44 PM

Teodor,
Its fantastic when you were not expecting anything

Rick,
Cartouche below mate. Sorry for delay, its been gettng dark here by 4.30 and I've not been getting home from work till after that. Sorry about the grey tint, the light is awful.

Gav,
Cheers mate, I'm a bit chuffed needless to say!

RSWORD · 22nd November 2010, 03:40 AM

Gene,

Thank you for posting the additional pictures. Nice to see that the cartouche is true inlay and not koftgari. Dating shamshirs is not an exact science. Styles remained relatively unchanged for several hundred years and inscriptions such as yours, "Kalb Ali" can be found on examples from the 17th to the 19th century so you can't date it on that alone. Earlier shamshir blades tend to be thicker/heavier with less curvature. They tend to have more profile taper from hilt to tip. They were meant for business and use against armour. Later shamshir begin to have greater curvature, get lighter and thinner and at this later stage were not in use against armour. Not hard and fast rules, mind you, but generalizations. The fullering on your example is a bit unusual, the inspiration could be E Europe but also could be India as well. I think the blade could be as early as 18th century into the 19th century. The hilt and crossguard could be period or could be later replacements. Blades had long service lives so rehilts are not uncommon. You just have to make sure it wasn't done yesterday.

The watering is very nice and more typical of Persian wootz. The crossguard is Persian in style as is the handle.

17th November 2010, 03:27 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Strange Shamshir in Wootz Shocker! (pictures) LOL, I should have been a newspaper hack! Here is a link to a discussion on a sword I've had for years: Unusual Shamshir Anyway, as was mentioned, it has a strange 'European' style blade with an Arabic Cartouche. I've never really thought the blade was anything, which is why it's taken until now for me to get around to doing anything to it. I think you'll agree the results are a bit of a shock. Is this ladder pattern? It seems to have regular bands about a centimeter apart. I'm scratching my head over this one! Help/comment appreciated! Best Gene Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 17th November 2010 at 03:47 PM.

18th November 2010, 12:17 AM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	woohoo!!! Great news Gene, awesome find...and to think this treasure has gone unnoticed for some time just sitting there....Congrats, something we all would love to own. Gav

21st November 2010, 06:44 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Teodor, Its fantastic when you were not expecting anything Rick, Cartouche below mate. Sorry for delay, its been gettng dark here by 4.30 and I've not been getting home from work till after that. Sorry about the grey tint, the light is awful. Gav, Cheers mate, I'm a bit chuffed needless to say! Attached Images

17th November 2010, 04:26 PM	#2
Aleksey G. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 70	Gene, you are right man...thats pretty amazing. Without visible wootz I would too peg this blade as a european/ east european with its wide single fuller and that type of a false edge being additional confirmations. The only thing that I would think twice about would be its drastic curve, euro blades dont usually curve to such degree. Dude... pattern looks awesome, nice and crisp, high contrast, from limited pics looks pretty clean thruout the blade (no large imperfections)...beaut!!! You know what will be even more of a shock: if you got time try to work on the guard.... what if its wootz as well? double shocker Alex

17th November 2010, 06:53 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	If you are going to have a surprise, this is the kind to have! That is a very lovely, active pattern and it does have some ladder-like features. I can see the "rungs" on the edge but do they extend across the ridge line to the upper half of the blade? If they are regularly spaced and appear across the entire blade then I would say they were definitely manipulating the blade to make it a ladder pattern. Count them to. They often come to near 40. I agree with Aleksey that the crossguard may be wootz as well. After this one, you may be tempted to go etch all of your blades!

17th November 2010, 07:03 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	scratching that etch increased the value by a considerable factor. what other wonders are within reach? only vinegar will tell....

17th November 2010, 07:37 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Alex, Thanks Mate, couldn't agree more! I didn't think for a second that this would be wootz. Condition isn't too bad, pattern on that side dissapears toward the end where there is light pitting. I'm just seeing what the other side (slightly better condition holds now Rick, I was hoping you'd come in on this as you specialise in unusual wootz. So this is Persian I guess. The cartouche says Amal Kalb Ali, so work of Ali. But I saw one sold by Christies where the blade was inscribed: "in typical self-deprecating style 'amal kalb 'ali isfahani "work of the Dog" of 'Ali at Isfahan." They also date that blade as 17thC, but I can't see this as being early, not with that shape. I'll count rungs in a bit kronck, LOL, too right! Just salt for my chips for a while. Regards ALL! Gene

17th November 2010, 08:02 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	With this hobby, I do not think there is anything nicer than etching a blade to reveal a nice pattern in the steel. Congratulations Gene, this sword went from very nice to truly wonderul. Good job on the etch too. Regards, Teodor

17th November 2010, 08:31 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Before forming an opinion on the age of the blade would you share a picture of the cartouche?

22nd November 2010, 03:40 AM	#10
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Gene, Thank you for posting the additional pictures. Nice to see that the cartouche is true inlay and not koftgari. Dating shamshirs is not an exact science. Styles remained relatively unchanged for several hundred years and inscriptions such as yours, "Kalb Ali" can be found on examples from the 17th to the 19th century so you can't date it on that alone. Earlier shamshir blades tend to be thicker/heavier with less curvature. They tend to have more profile taper from hilt to tip. They were meant for business and use against armour. Later shamshir begin to have greater curvature, get lighter and thinner and at this later stage were not in use against armour. Not hard and fast rules, mind you, but generalizations. The fullering on your example is a bit unusual, the inspiration could be E Europe but also could be India as well. I think the blade could be as early as 18th century into the 19th century. The hilt and crossguard could be period or could be later replacements. Blades had long service lives so rehilts are not uncommon. You just have to make sure it wasn't done yesterday. The watering is very nice and more typical of Persian wootz. The crossguard is Persian in style as is the handle.