Moro Spear

[Nathaniel]

(Whistling!!!) Wow, what a looker!

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Battara

Your welcome!

Well for Arabic I noticed Dom does a great job. For Jawi.......well........er.......um.........perhaps someone on the keris forum?

Hi
sorry for delays about our intervention, we were travelling
indeed, better to found someone with "Jawi" knowledge,
because, the mention on the blade, it's not in Arabic

best regards

à +

Dom

[Rick]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

DANGER CONJECTURE AHEAD
I SUSPECT DURING COMBAT BETWEEN MOROS THE SPEAR WOULD HAVE BEEN USED INITIALLY BUT IF IT BECAME TOO CLOSE AND CROWDED TO USE MAY HAVE BEEN THROWN OR DROPPED AS IN THE PICTURE AND THEN THEY CLOSED WITH SWORDS.

WHEN FACEING FORIGN TROOPS WITH GUNS PERHAPS THEY RUSHED OUT AND THREW ALL SPEARS AT THE ENEMY AND THEN RAN LIKE HECK TO TRY AND CLOSE WHILE THE ENEMY DUCKED AND COULDN'T BRING THE GUNS TO BEAR. THE MORO WERE NOT THE TYPE TO THROW THEIR SPEARS AND RUN OFF BUT AGAINST GUNS SHEILDS WERE NO GOOD AND GETTING INTO RANGE WITH SPEAR OR SWORD BEFORE BEING SHOT WAS THE PROBLEM. A MORO MAY HAVE FIGURED IF WE WIN AND I LIVE I WILL GET MY SPEAR BACK IF WE DON'T IT WON'T MATTER AS I WILL HAVE NO FURTHER NEED FOR IT.

CONGRADULATIONS ON FINDING ONE OF THESE MONSTER LARGE SIZE MORO SPEARS THEY ARE FEW AND FAR IN BETWEEN. I LUCKED OUT BACK IN THE EARLY 1980'S AND GOT ONE OF THEM IT SURE WAS HARD TO GET HOME WITH IT AS IT WOULDN'T FIT IN THE CAR.

As I understand it warfare with the Muslim tribes was either ambuscade, raid, or attacks on Cottas where Moros had gathered for common defense/last stand .

I find myself wondering if this spear is more a symbol of alliance between two leaders of tribes with a common interest in driving the Infidel from the Moro Lands .


Pure speculation:

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Rick

As I understand it warfare with the Muslim tribes was either ambuscade, raid, or attacks on Cottas where Moros had gathered for common defense/last stand .

I find myself wondering if this spear is more a symbol of alliance between two leaders of tribes with a common interest in driving the Infidel from the Moro Lands .


Pure speculation:

Rick,

Since Jentayu has offered a partial translation that notes two Datu names, I too would speculate this spear is a presentaion piece from one Datu to another Datu, be it gift in appreciation or from one father to another in time of sibling bonding or perhaps as a symbol of alliance.
I hope when the script is fully translated it may capture more of the reasons for this. I have asked one university at this point in time who have referred me to another and I'll just keeping doing this until complete...though it is my hope the community here will stop the suspense.

Gav

[BigG]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Outstanding and thank you Jentayu, this wonderful start is greatly appreciated.

Hopefully another can complete the mystery....though if not I will try to find the time to show this to the linguistics dept of the QLD Uni and perhaps there is someone there who can read it all...again Jentayu, fantastic!!!

Looking at the Wiki Jawi link it appears this angle for translation maybe more suitable


Gav

5 of the first letterings on the second line from the right has the equivalent of the consonant sounds of (N-K-R) (K-N) it could thus be read as "nukar-kan" ie "to change"... or " to replace ".

Therefore the 2nd line might read "nukarkan datu Hashim" ie "to replace datu Hashim"

I cnt make out the 1st half of the top line from the right... but the 2nd half reads as datu (Jamil)?... so it can read from the 2nd half onwards from the top to the bottom as "Datu Jamil(?) nukarkan Datu Hashim" or "Datu Jamil(?) to replace (or) has replaced Datu Hashim"... please verify this with an expert though...

[Gavin Nugent]

BigG!!! Outstanding!!! Thank you!!!

This new dimension, although as you suggest BigG, awaiting expert assesment, in the context you noted certainly adds a wonderful historical apect to this spear!
It seems like a changing of the guard to to speak....and for it to me marked on the twistcore spear head...this really must have been important...this really is getting interesting.

THANK YOU

Gav

[BigG]

glad to help... but really get an expert verification as even tho much of the languages of the philipines are dialects of Malay... it is not exactly like the Standard Malay I know...

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by BigG

glad to help... but really get an expert verification as even tho much of the languages of the philipines are dialects of Malay... it is not exactly like the Standard Malay I know...

Will do for sure BigG, I know I am as others are currently looking for confirmation on Jentayu and your work.
Greatly appreciated, I don't think this is seen very often on Moro weaponry.
Completed work will be published when it comes to light...

Gav

[Reichsritter]

Originally Posted by freebooter

The spear arrived today and it is a beautiful piece in the hand and can certainly be applied in the martial manner of Chinese spears even if the head maybe considered a little heavy.
The twist core section is hollow ground/forged and there is a very subtle medial ridge within this section so can it be considered a Budiak???

Images and further detail in a few weeks.

Nice spears Bill.


Gav

Hi Gav-

The local dialect (Tausug) for spear in Sulu is Budjak

[Spunjer]

Lol, i had a feeling you'd pop out here sooner or later, reichsritter... how are ya?

[Reichsritter]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

Lol, i had a feeling you'd pop out here sooner or later, reichsritter... how are ya?

Maayo man ko migo


I was drawn in some interesting topic in the European Armory for a while (ato ko didto hehe)....just noticed this nice Budjak with interesting Jawi inscription. Will try to look at these people in the Tarsila

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

Hi Gav-

The local dialect (Tausug) for spear in Sulu is Budjak

Hi Reichsritter,

Thank you for further insight and I am glad you are well.

Seeking further clarity on the subject of filipino spears;
Budjak = Budiak = spear and there is no naming difference between a chiseled example such as Lee's or Maurice's found in the links at the start and this one presented?
I hope you weaken enough to share anything else you can about the Budjak and the inscription.

regards

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Here is a notion, fanciful too..let me have my dreams for a moment

With the translation that has been offered, could the word Jamil actually be Amil as in Datu Amil from the Sulu regions noted in Fultons work?
Finding such note worthy script on a spear or any Moro weapon for that matter must have a great importance and Amil was of the new school of thought were others were considered old school, perhaps a change that was note worthy enough to show on a spear and the spear being the king of weapons....let the dream stay for a minute before you all come firing in...

Gav

[Reichsritter]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Reichsritter,

Thank you for further insight and I am glad you are well.

Seeking further clarity on the subject of filipino spears;
Budjak = Budiak = spear and there is no naming difference between a chiseled example such as Lee's or Maurice's found in the links at the start and this one presented?
I hope you weaken enough to share anything else you can about the Budjak and the inscription.

regards

Gavin

Hi Gav-

No distinction, all spear for a Tausug is called Budjak. What I am intrigue here if who is Datu Jamil and Hashim in Sulu Genealogy. Im crossing my fingers that I can pinpoint who they are and what generation they lived.

By the way, it appears to me that Datu Hashim is an heir of Datu Jamil. The title was passed and maybe perhaps a responsiblity.

"Jamil" (meaning handsome) I think was more common name rather that Amil

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

Hi Gav-

No distinction, all spear for a Tausug is called Budjak. What I am intrigue here if who is Datu Jamil and Hashim in Sulu Genealogy. Im crossing my fingers that I can pinpoint who they are and what generation they lived.

By the way, it appears to me that Datu Hashim is an heir of Datu Jamil. The title was passed and maybe perhaps a responsiblity.

"Jamil" (meaning handsome) I think was more common name rather that Amil

Hi Reichritter,

You obviously have very good resources. I would hazard a guess that you start with the WWII era and work back as this was from the estate of a Naval Gunnery SGT who was in the area in WWII...I hope that helps.

Gav

[Reichsritter]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Reichritter,

You obviously have very good resources. I would hazard a guess that you start with the WWII era and work back as this was from the estate of a Naval Gunnery SGT who was in the area in WWII...I hope that helps.

Gav

Hi Gav-

It could be before WWII, but I'm looking far earlier. Things like these (including Kalis & Barung ) are heirlooms passed from generations together with the titles usually inherited by the eldest son. Remember, they practiced the traditional law of primogeniture.

[eric45]

very nice piece.
Eric

[BigG]

Originally Posted by freebooter

...could the word Jamil actually be Amil ...

Gav

not likely... the Jawi letter that came after the Jawi spelling of Datu' in the first line is the letter JHIM that creates the equivalent of the romanise consonant sound made by the letter "J"... as in "Jug, Jiggle, Joe". For the word to be Amil... the first Jawi letter has to be a different and distinctively written one. That is the Jawi letter of "ALIF"... That letter is not present there...

[Battara]

I would also propose that this piece is definitely pre-WWII, even perhaps pre-1900.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks BigG, Battara,

Here is the ole warrior restored.

Both sides of the blade now cleaned, collar and butt cap also cleaned and the wood oiled.... came up a quite nice

The collar looks to be Suassa with the brass/gold/copper tones The Butt fitting retains a green patina after a very good clean.

Seeing how well it came up, given the time, I might just get in to that Yanyuedao.

Gav

[David]

Oh stop it Gav, you're killin' me!
That sure is a beauty alright. Maybe the sweetest Moro spear i've seen.

[BigG]

Excellent restoration work. Outstanding budiak ths...

[Battara]

Wonderful piece! Looking like brass sleeve and butt to me.........

Nice work! Old warrior back to its former glory.

[Sajen]

Congratulations for this beauty and the very good restore work!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

Oh stop it Gav, you're killin' me!
That sure is a beauty alright. Maybe the sweetest Moro spear i've seen.

Oh come on David , just one more..... Battara, BigG, Sajen, turned out better than I imagined.

Gav

[Battara]

Yes, definitely brass sleeve. Say if you ever throw it in the trash, let me know so that I can come by and unburden you.

[tunggulametung]

Since Bangsa Moro is great sailor, I think this hook on the butt cap is useful for spearfishing (still practiced in Indonesia). The rope can be secured to the collar to like on Lee's example. Just an idea.

Two of the pictures come from here

[David]

I don't believe that this was ever intended for spear fishing. The spearhead is all wrong and would not be efficient for keeping the catch on the spear.

[tunggulametung]

As for the translation, I can't help much. We need to limit which language is most likely used here. Tausug? Yakan? Maguindanao? Maranao? what else is probable? I don't speak any of these languages nor within knowledge how differ the vocabulary, I understand that some if not many of them are interchangeable, even to Malay but I believe there are times when they are greatly differ.

I believe when we are speaking about older days, spelling is not really matter, the most important is how they sound and how someone can give meaning to that sound. So if we are looking for the translation on dictionary, we have to try on more than one word for greater possibilities. And of course getting it translated by someone who speak the language is better because they can translate it not only word by word but by the whole idea. Sorry can't express it in shorter word .

I generally agree with Big if we speak from Malay point of view as I will go here, these might be far from valid (given the language differences above) but I'll just try here to give a perspective. On the first line, first letter is unreadable to me (but might be significant). I don't read any "datu", only "tu" which can be a shorter form of "untuk" (for), next maybe "kami" (us), then "hasil" (result/in return-exchange for), on the second line I speculate it will be "nakar kan datu hasim" because I will put "waw" (u) after "nun" (n) if I want to go "nukarkan" (to exchange) but again spelling doesn't matter anyway ... google says "nakar" is pearl in tagalog? maybe close/similarities with languages down south? "kan" sound familiar, common suffix in malay, also shorther form of "akan" (will be) etc.. but I believe have different meaning in Moro Land. This is my best try, I hope someone who speak the language can translate it, would be exciting to know what it read in the end. Sorry if I read the Jawi in error I'm not fluent. Congrats for this outstanding budiak (or whatever the original owner call it)!

[tunggulametung]

Originally Posted by David

I don't believe that this was ever intended for spear fishing. The spearhead is all wrong and would not be efficient for keeping the catch on the spear.

Me too. I agree about the shape of the head, it is too fancy as well. But ritual and belief system sometime goes beyond that. I just try to go outside of the box and think. So how about water/boat fight? I think I read somewhere that Bangsa Moro is a good fighter both on land and water?