One for Jens.

Gavin Nugent · 10th July 2010, 11:48 AM

Jens,

I posted this image for you based on a comment you wrote some time back about never seeing a Hindu basket hilted Sosun Patta. I guess you may have seen one or two since that comment was written but I can say I never saw one until this came along..

Gav

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2010, 06:21 PM

This is an outstanding example Gav, thank you so much for posting it. This has inspired me to get out the books to do some research on these, I honestly had never realized how rare they are.

I'll see what I can find, and if I can post before the stampede of information pours in from the masses of enthusiasts on Indian weapons!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 12th July 2010, 07:22 PM

Hi Gav,
Yes you are right I have seen them, but like Jim writes - they are not often seen. Nice one by the way, but you should have shown more detail pictures - or are they coming?
Jens

KuKulzA28 · 12th July 2010, 07:30 PM

Wow that's a really nice sword. Does the Hindu Basket-hilt mean it was a Maratha blade? I know very little about these sword.

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2010, 05:30 PM

Some further research has revealed some pretty fascinating possibilities with this sword, which seems now to actually step away from the general classification of sosun pattah.

Rawson notes in the silhouette profiles an example which is described as a Rajput sosun pattah with Hindu basket hilt and the blade forward curved but deep bellied with a concave section at the tip which results in the peak. The entire blade has a more flowing curvature and profile. E. Jaiwent Paul ("Arms and Armour: The Traditional Weapons of India") describes these examples as Rajput-Maratha, noting the close connection between them.

In Paul, there are line drawings of blade types, and the blade on this example corresponds almost perfectly with a forward 'angled' blade which he classifies as a 'Borabadur' form. This refers to the swords depicted in relief in the iconography of the stupa at this place in Java, where Hindu colonization began that empire in the 9th century. There are swords with similar forward angled blades in Ellora of 12th c.

During the 18th century, the Marathas occupying Vizianagaram were fabricating swords of traditional forms and in line with other indiginous forms in India. It is well known that flamboyant sword forms developed in various periods and regions which often embellished features of actual fighting swords, and often swords were intended to dramatize visual effect, a number of these are seen in the Nayar 'temple swords'.
Good examples of this concept are also seen in Pahiri swords which appear with bifurcated tip and dramatic serrated edges (often termed 'Zulfikar' with reference to the Sword of the Prophet); the curious swords with disc like enlargement at forte recalling the hood of the cobra; the wavy, serpentine blades.

This example I am inclined to view as probably a Maratha weapon, more in line with the 'kirach' type sword favored by them, and produced in a more atavistic form recalling the traditional forward angled blades from iconographic sources of Borabadur. Naturally its Hindu basket hilt, in sumptuous decoration, suggests it is a probably a courtly dress weapon which may have been for an individual of high position in the Maratha court, if not a regal figure. I believe this is likely a blade which may have been produced in the early 18th century and quite possibly as note, in the Vizianagaram regions.

A fantastic example, and again I would like to thank Gav for sharing it, and providing the opportunity to learn from it.

Gavin Nugent · 13th July 2010, 11:33 PM

Amazing Jim,

45 years on and working out of the book mobile and here is another wonderful insight into the very esoteric world of indian arms.

With the type correction you have bought forth and comparing the forward weighted and clipped back edge of this swords tip to the Kirach and Sosun Pata I own, along with the wonderful notes I tend to agree and my initial thoughts were rather off.

Thanks Jim

Gav

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2010, 03:58 AM

Thank you so much Gav! and actually what is amazing is returning to these same old books and seeing them with 'new eyes' in noticing information that was somehow previously overlooked. Having examples such as this one offers whole new insight into our perspective on these weapons, and having them posted helps us all.

All the best,
Jim

10th July 2010, 11:48 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	One for Jens. Jens, I posted this image for you based on a comment you wrote some time back about never seeing a Hindu basket hilted Sosun Patta. I guess you may have seen one or two since that comment was written but I can say I never saw one until this came along.. Gav Attached Images

13th July 2010, 11:33 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Amazing Jim Amazing Jim, 45 years on and working out of the book mobile and here is another wonderful insight into the very esoteric world of indian arms. With the type correction you have bought forth and comparing the forward weighted and clipped back edge of this swords tip to the Kirach and Sosun Pata I own, along with the wonderful notes I tend to agree and my initial thoughts were rather off. Thanks Jim Gav

12th July 2010, 06:21 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This is an outstanding example Gav, thank you so much for posting it. This has inspired me to get out the books to do some research on these, I honestly had never realized how rare they are. I'll see what I can find, and if I can post before the stampede of information pours in from the masses of enthusiasts on Indian weapons!!! All the best, Jim

12th July 2010, 07:22 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Gav, Yes you are right I have seen them, but like Jim writes - they are not often seen. Nice one by the way, but you should have shown more detail pictures - or are they coming? Jens

12th July 2010, 07:30 PM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Wow that's a really nice sword. Does the Hindu Basket-hilt mean it was a Maratha blade? I know very little about these sword.

13th July 2010, 05:30 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Some further research has revealed some pretty fascinating possibilities with this sword, which seems now to actually step away from the general classification of sosun pattah. Rawson notes in the silhouette profiles an example which is described as a Rajput sosun pattah with Hindu basket hilt and the blade forward curved but deep bellied with a concave section at the tip which results in the peak. The entire blade has a more flowing curvature and profile. E. Jaiwent Paul ("Arms and Armour: The Traditional Weapons of India") describes these examples as Rajput-Maratha, noting the close connection between them. In Paul, there are line drawings of blade types, and the blade on this example corresponds almost perfectly with a forward 'angled' blade which he classifies as a 'Borabadur' form. This refers to the swords depicted in relief in the iconography of the stupa at this place in Java, where Hindu colonization began that empire in the 9th century. There are swords with similar forward angled blades in Ellora of 12th c. During the 18th century, the Marathas occupying Vizianagaram were fabricating swords of traditional forms and in line with other indiginous forms in India. It is well known that flamboyant sword forms developed in various periods and regions which often embellished features of actual fighting swords, and often swords were intended to dramatize visual effect, a number of these are seen in the Nayar 'temple swords'. Good examples of this concept are also seen in Pahiri swords which appear with bifurcated tip and dramatic serrated edges (often termed 'Zulfikar' with reference to the Sword of the Prophet); the curious swords with disc like enlargement at forte recalling the hood of the cobra; the wavy, serpentine blades. This example I am inclined to view as probably a Maratha weapon, more in line with the 'kirach' type sword favored by them, and produced in a more atavistic form recalling the traditional forward angled blades from iconographic sources of Borabadur. Naturally its Hindu basket hilt, in sumptuous decoration, suggests it is a probably a courtly dress weapon which may have been for an individual of high position in the Maratha court, if not a regal figure. I believe this is likely a blade which may have been produced in the early 18th century and quite possibly as note, in the Vizianagaram regions. A fantastic example, and again I would like to thank Gav for sharing it, and providing the opportunity to learn from it.

14th July 2010, 03:58 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thank you so much Gav! and actually what is amazing is returning to these same old books and seeing them with 'new eyes' in noticing information that was somehow previously overlooked. Having examples such as this one offers whole new insight into our perspective on these weapons, and having them posted helps us all. All the best, Jim