Where is this sheat from?

[Sajen]

Pak Ganja I will do it when I received the keris. I am very curious to know what I have bought so I will do all to get answers.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for that Pak Ganja.

Not a lot of similarity there, is there?

I reckon we're back to square one.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Moshah

Hi Gustav,

Yes it was in that picture.

Sorry "cheek line" is not a proper term for it. I dunno what u called it, but what i meant is the line from upper crosspiece to lower, where the line is in between a "/" and a "k" in the watermark "http://keris.fotopic.net"

It's called "lata" so far I know.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for that Pak Ganja.

Not a lot of similarity there, is there?

I reckon we're back to square one.

It seems like this. The best will be to wait until I receive the keris and I can take some better pictures.

Thank's to all for this interesting discussion.

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Moshah

About the features (caping, shoulder & third eye of Shiva), I hope Sajen can scan & upload the Spirit of Wood pg 169, so that we all can see what I mean here.

I have taken a picture and I think that it is clear enough.

[Moshah]

Sorry for the pix orientation, pak Ganja. I just uploaded it straight from Artzi's.

It would not do us any harm if the wronko is Cirebonese or Coteng's. Pak Ganja has given good points in determining Cirebonese sheath. That is his area of expertise.

Coteng has never been an area of my expertise, nor that I am an expert. Also my lack of Cirebonese example and knowledge would also holds me no valid ground to express my point.

Aesthetic asides, I only see as what I stand from the points that I mentioned (bahu, caping, shiva 3rd eye). From Sajen's scanned pix of Spirit of Woods, it is easy to see why I think that way.

Of course I would not know about the bangunan, development of the wronko etc. If pak Ganja or any expert can elaborate on that, that would be a feast for me, as I can learn some more.

[Gustav]

Dear Moshah,

the features similar to Bahu, Caping and Mata Ketiga Siva are found on other keris sheath then coteng's.
Bahu (if it means the small ridge at the bottom og gonjo and not simply Pidakan) is visible on the Cirebonese (?) sheath from Hidayat's page (oncemore http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html), Caping is similar to a common feature called Ri Cangkring, features related to Mata Ketiga Siva are Wideng on Javanese and Mata Ideng & Alis Pandji on Balinese sheaths.
The point is indeed, Sajen's sheath has no Loto or Pejetan and Wideng are very extensive.

The pictures are a keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?).

[Sajen]

Today I received the keris and this sheath is a real mystery for me. It's carved from a very lightweight wood and not very fine executed but definitively with a good age. There are unfortunately two old repairs. The carvings are not symmetric. The width down from the Tampingan are 30 mm (1,18 inch).
Here some first pictures:

[DAHenkel]

That sheath is definitely 100% Pattani so it looks like you have gotten yourself a composite piece with a (likely) Madura blade and hilt.

This thread though raises the very relevant connection between the North Coast of Java and the origins of the keris in the Northeast Peninsula. There is definitely a strong connection - all you have to do is scan through Karsten Jensen's book. The familial relationship is sometimes striking!

Now Detlef, all you gotta do is keep your eyes peeled for an early Pattani blade and a bangsa agung or earlier style coteng hilt.

[ganjawulung]

For comparison,

Side view of two Cirebon warangkas, and upper view of them. Gustav post #37, IMHO is clearly images of Banten warangka...

GANJAWULUNG

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

For comparison,

Side view of two Cirebon warangkas, and upper view of them. Gustav post #37, IMHO is clearly images of Banten warangka...

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Ganjawulung,

I am fully aware the top picture in my post #37 would be regarded by most people as Wrongko from Banten, as I already stated. However on Jensen's Krisdisk Chapter 4, page 6 an almost identical Wrongko is atributed to Tegal/Cirebon.

A very similar Wrongko to that in the second picture in the post #37 is attributed to Cirebon by Hidayat.

The Wrongko on the wright side picture in your post #30 would be attributed to Tegal by the most people.

I suppose, there are a lot of opinions and guesses about the provenience of different Wrongko forms before the beginning of 18. cent. (particularly old Ladrang forms) and no absolute clarity. I suppose also, this clarity is inexistent and so impossibly to reach.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

That sheath is definitely 100% Pattani so it looks like you have gotten yourself a composite piece with a (likely) Madura blade and hilt.

This thread though raises the very relevant connection between the North Coast of Java and the origins of the keris in the Northeast Peninsula. There is definitely a strong connection - all you have to do is scan through Karsten Jensen's book. The familial relationship is sometimes striking!

Now Detlef, all you gotta do is keep your eyes peeled for an early Pattani blade and a bangsa agung or earlier style coteng hilt.

What traits make this a Pattani sheath? We don't see any coteng sheaths like this anywhere else.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Gustav

I am fully aware the top picture in my post #37 would be regarded by most people as Wrongko from Banten, as I already stated. However on Jensen's Krisdisk Chapter 4, page 6 an almost identical Wrongko is atributed to Tegal/Cirebon.

A very similar Wrongko to that in the second picture in the post #37 is attributed to Cirebon by Hidayat.

The Wrongko on the wright side picture in your post #30 would be attributed to Tegal by the most people.

I suppose, there are a lot of opinions and guesses about the provenience of different Wrongko forms before the beginning of 18. cent. (particularly old Ladrang forms) and no absolute clarity. I suppose also, this clarity is inexistent and so impossibly to reach.

So Gustav,

I just follow the example from the Museum Gajah (The National Museum) of Jakarta. It was displayed some keris Banten like images below. You may compare yourself the picture..

The third picture, is an example of Tegal warangka with "rajamala" hilt

GANJAWULUNG

[Gustav]

Dear Ganjawulung,

in my post #37 I wrote : The pictures are keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?).

I never said, the sheath in question isn't from Banten, more the opposite is the case.

I think, there is no need to point out, which from them possibly is from Banten, after the pictures in your previous post.

The use of interrogation marks in my post wasn't there, becouse I would like them so much. Using them I would like just to show, there could be many opinions (which, of course, are not equally good founded) regarding the provenienence of the sheaths in these pictures.

[Sajen]

Hello all,

like I mentioned in my post #38 this sheat is still a great mystery for my person since my handled Pattani keris is very marginal. So my "knowledge" is taken from pictures in books and from the forum as well from other online pages. And all sheaths I have seen there have been worked in good or very good skill. But this sheath isn't executed with a good skill. I will show you what I mean in pictures separate. A second point is the used wood, it's a very light wood with a unremarkable grain and from blonde natural colour. The weight is 99 gram.
Besides from this there are two repairs. The front leaf of sampir is missing and replaced from some sort of body filler. And the badly repaired break behind the batang.
Now the comments to the pictures which shows the "mistakes" from the carving. When you look to the pic 6 in post # 38 you can see that the tulang daun are not straight. At the same pic you can see that the caping points are not in direct opposite. The carving of the mata ketiga siva are not very well carved (pic 4 & 5).
But my feeling is like Dave and Moshah mentioned that it is a Pattani sheath, look for example the tips of sampir.
But I am with BluErf, which traits let it be a Pattani sheat?

Best regards,

Detlef

[max]

The same wrangka,

Sorry I am new to the forum and had some difficulties with the pictures. I had to adjust them so the fit the forum size. I have this wrangka for a long time. I bought the keris in the past from an englisch seller. As you can see, the tips are broken off. Nice from this forum now I have a pretty good idea how it schould look like with the tipp !!!

[Rick]

Do you have a picture to show us Max ?

[Sajen]

The question is if it is possible to have a sheath from Pattani with such a light wood and not exactly carvings? All other sheaths I have seen from there have had better carvings and other wood, i.e. more hard wood.

[Gustav]

Sajen, Max have put pictures of the sheath in he's old post.

Here a picture from a museum in Venice:

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by max

The same wrangka,

Sorry I am new to the forum and had some difficulties with the pictures. I had to adjust them so the fit the forum size. I have this wrangka for a long time. I bought the keris in the past from an englisch seller. As you can see, the tips are broken off. Nice from this forum now I have a pretty good idea how it schould look like with the tipp !!!

Hello Max,

first of all welcome to the forum.

Your sheath look indeed very similar apart from the missing tips. Please can you tell us if the sheat is also from light wood, i.e. balsa wood? And a picture from the blade if you don't mind?

I am planning to restore the sheat since it is ugly painted and the break good visible.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Sajen, Max have put pictures of the sheath in he's old post.

Here a picture from a museum in Venice:

Hello Gustav,

the sheath from Max is very similar. My guess or better hope was from beginning that it is a Pattani sheat (look #5 same thread).

Best regards,

Detlef

[max]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Max,

first of all welcome to the forum.

Your sheath look indeed very similar apart from the missing tips. Please can you tell us if the sheat is also from light wood, i.e. balsa wood? And a picture from the blade if you don't mind?

I am planning to restore the sheat since it is ugly painted and the break good visible.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,

The sheath is indeed of light wood, I think is the same wood they use for your sheath. It has the same structure and same glance, although pictures always difference a little bit from the realty. But I recognice it as very identical. I have given it some though too, to led the sheath restored. But it never came so far. maybay now its a good time. You give me some good ideas about the missing tipps. I think its at least worth it !!! Here are the pics you aksed for.

[tunggulametung]

Hello all,

This could be originate anywhere within Nusantara, we know too little about the past. Maybe even Madura own these style in the past, we never know. But then the style develop very well in Pattani (north to Malaysia ) and in my opinion achieve its highest form there.
Attached are similar styles for comparison.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by max

Hello Detlef,

The sheath is indeed of light wood, I think is the same wood they use for your sheath. It has the same structure and same glance, although pictures always difference a little bit from the realty. But I recognice it as very identical. I have given it some though too, to led the sheath restored. But it never came so far. maybay now its a good time. You give me some good ideas about the missing tipps. I think its at least worth it !!! Here are the pics you aksed for.

Hello Max,

thank's for the additional pictures. Agree that the sheaths are very similar. The blade seems not original to the sheat alike by my assemble.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello all,

This could be originate anywhere within Nusantara, we know too little about the past. Maybe even Madura own these style in the past, we never know. But then the style develop very well in Pattani (north to Malaysia ) and in my opinion achieve its highest form there.
Attached are similar styles for comparison.

Hello Pak Chandra,

nice to have you back here and thank's for the pictures!

Detlef

[Moshah]

Hi...

Wow we are still very much in the discussion?

If you all aware, we can see that the "third eye of shiva" differs from Sajen's sheath, the coteng's sheath and the Spirit of wood book.

Hopefully someone familiar with this area should point us what and how is "the third eye of shiva" supposed to be.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by BluErf

What traits make this a Pattani sheath? We don't see any coteng sheaths like this anywhere else.

To answer my own question, Dave and I just came across this picture of 1 very old coteng in our friend, Paul De Souza's collection, which was collected in Thailand (Bangkok). This more or less shows that Detlef's keris is a very early coteng form.

[max]

As you can see, my sheath as several small superfacial holls. One is still filled with. Tin ?? Or lead ?? Its only on the front side of the wrangka. I always asked myself of there was a perticuliar meaning for this. Because we are going so deep in this wrangka, maybay someone have some ideas or suggestions. I am not familair with this fenomen in java.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by BluErf

To answer my own question, Dave and I just came across this picture of 1 very old coteng in our friend, Paul De Souza's collection, which was collected in Thailand (Bangkok). This more or less shows that Detlef's keris is a very early coteng form.

Hello Kai Wee,

thank you for clarify the origin of my sheat. This answer also the question from Moshah about the third eye of shiva since it look on Paul de Souza's sheath very similar.
One question: is the nose from the hilt by Paul de Souza's keris old broken or is the hilt still complete?

Now it is like Dave write in #39, all I need is a Pattani blade and a fitting hilt.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by max

As you can see, my sheath as several small superfacial holls. One is still filled with. Tin ?? Or lead ?? Its only on the front side of the wrangka. I always asked myself of there was a perticuliar meaning for this. Because we are going so deep in this wrangka, maybay someone have some ideas or suggestions. I am not familair with this fenomen in java.

Maybe someone tried to fill the holes with body filler?