Chinese weapons or potato masher and a fireplace tool

kino · 19th April 2010, 01:26 AM

Are these circa boxer rebellion weapons, chinese tong weapons or perhaps replicas made for the tourist trade. They look or made to look old. The one with the hook is 21 inches in length and at its widest part is 4.5 inches.
The mace is heavy, 16.5 inches in length, with the business end having a diameter at 2 inches. School me.

fearn · 19th April 2010, 02:47 AM

I can't tell from the pictures, but a mace can be a "genuine weapon" if it's heavy and dents skull-like objects. As for whether they are the age claimed, I can't tell from the pictures you provided.

Neat objects, though.

Best,

F

Gavin Nugent · 19th April 2010, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

I can't tell from the pictures, but a mace can be a "genuine weapon" if it's heavy and dents skull-like objects. As for whether they are the age claimed, I can't tell from the pictures you provided.

Neat objects, though.

Best,

F

I agree, from the images it is hard to tell and based on this, my thoughts...

The top piece I wouldn't consider genuine at all, of genuine small hafted weapons I have handed, all handle fittings were tightly pressed/forged in place. This piece seems reliant on the timber holding the two ferrules in place. The haft shows correct faceting too but lacks taper and the external wear doesn't seem consistant with the inside/grooves/joint wear...

The mace I am 35%in favour of. The age and construction looks great right up to where the head joins the haft...it then looks to screw in place or similar??? Certainly is not how I would have expected it to join together. The haft does have some nice taper which is good. A shame too that the head facets are cleaned the way they are, more could have been guessed from its original appearance.

Again, just some quick thoughts based on images.

Gav

katana · 19th April 2010, 12:01 PM

Not my field, but I have seen a mace almost identical to the one shown, also attributed to the time of the Boxers. Where the shaft meets the facetted head there seems to be a gap. Perhaps due to the 'uneven' surface of the area to which it is attached. I'm wondering whether the bronze / brass head was cast directly onto the shaft.

Regards David

kino · 19th April 2010, 07:20 PM

Thanks for the opinions.

Katana,
The mace head is ferrous iron/metal. It doesn't seem to be screwed in.

Gav,
It is too bad that the mace head had been cleaned.
I wonder what a bath in Ferric chloride would reveal. Not that I would, just a thought.

VANDOO · 19th April 2010, 10:35 PM

THESE ARE DEFINITELY CHINESE (I FEEL SAFE SAYING THAT)

ONE FORGEING TECKNIQUE SOMETIMES USED WAS TO PASS THE HEATED END OF THE SHAFT THRU THE HANDLE OR HEAD AND PEEN IT OUT TO HOLD IT SECURELY. AS WE CAN'T SEE IF THE MACE HEAD WAS FIXED BY PASSING THE SHAFT THRU AND PEENING I CAN'T COMMENT ON IT.
STRANGELY ENOUGH I HAVE FOUND MOST WEAPONS BROUGHT BACK FROM THE BOXER REBELLION TO BE IN MUCH BETTER SHAPE THAN THOSE THAT STAYED IN CHINA. I HAVE HEARD OF WEAPONS BEING BURRIED OR HIDDEN SO PERHAPS THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MACE. THE OTHER WEAPON APPEARS TO HAVE FARED MUCH BETTER. SO PERHAPS ONE WAS BROUGHT BACK IN GOOD SHAPE FROM THE BOXER REBELLION AND THE OTHER ONE BROUGHT BACK LATER OR IT WAS DUG UP FOR THE REBELLION

. MYSTERIES MAKE COLLECTING MORE INTERESTING BUT LACK OF PROVENANCE CAN ALSO BE FRUSTRATING.

josh stout · 23rd April 2010, 03:00 PM

These ones are tough. Overall, the shapes and proportions seem slightly off, but Chinese things like these are often idiosyncratic. The mace head seems slightly too big, and the hook shape is wrong. It is a bit too wide. The barbed spear shape tip is not something I have seen on antiques, but is not uncommon on fakes.

That said, as pointed out, the faceted shaft on the gou (hook) is something I previously would have said is an indication of a genuine antique. Also the faceted "nuts" on the handle appear very good.

Josh

kino · 25th April 2010, 04:41 PM

Josh, thanks for your input. Now I really am confused

t_c · 25th April 2010, 05:57 PM

Hey Kino (and Josh), maybe I can help with the confusion. I think I have handled these - did you find them in a bucket on 13th in stumptown?
If these are the same ones, they seemed fairly authentic to me IMHO - in hand they felt "right". I think that shop tends to clean up the the older, more beat up stuff they get (just an observation - not judging them for it). That could explain why they might seem a little weird (proportions off, etc). It looks like the blade and mace heads were ground new to make the piece "sellable", while the shafts were given less attention to show the age. This might explain the "barbs" on the spear head. If it was deeply rusted at the base of the point, I suspect someone just took it to a grinder or belt sander - it looks like the "barbs" could be "steps" made with a grinder (a little misguided creativity in cleaning it up). It's been a long time since I handled them, and I'm speculating on the pictures. Is there any indication of this on closer inspection?

If I had had more money I would've bought them when I saw them, picked up a couple of different pieces instead, but I still really like these guys

. Nice pieces.

kino · 25th April 2010, 06:23 PM

t_c, I did find them in a bucket on 13th. I don't know if the area is called Stumptown. I just happened to drive by the store on my way to getting lost.
Are you from that area?

t_c · 25th April 2010, 06:44 PM

I lived there years ago - stopped by the shop last summer when I was up visiting friends. "Stumptown" is just a nickname for Portland (logging reference), but that neighborhood is Sellwood.
Getting lost is a good thing sometimes

19th April 2010, 01:26 AM	#1
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Chinese weapons or potato masher and a fireplace tool Are these circa boxer rebellion weapons, chinese tong weapons or perhaps replicas made for the tourist trade. They look or made to look old. The one with the hook is 21 inches in length and at its widest part is 4.5 inches. The mace is heavy, 16.5 inches in length, with the business end having a diameter at 2 inches. School me. Attached Images

19th April 2010, 12:01 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Not my field, but I have seen a mace almost identical to the one shown, also attributed to the time of the Boxers. Where the shaft meets the facetted head there seems to be a gap. Perhaps due to the 'uneven' surface of the area to which it is attached. I'm wondering whether the bronze / brass head was cast directly onto the shaft. Regards David Attached Images

19th April 2010, 02:47 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I can't tell from the pictures, but a mace can be a "genuine weapon" if it's heavy and dents skull-like objects. As for whether they are the age claimed, I can't tell from the pictures you provided. Neat objects, though. Best, F

19th April 2010, 07:20 PM	#5
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Thanks for the opinions. Katana, The mace head is ferrous iron/metal. It doesn't seem to be screwed in. Gav, It is too bad that the mace head had been cleaned. I wonder what a bath in Ferric chloride would reveal. Not that I would, just a thought.

19th April 2010, 10:35 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THESE ARE DEFINITELY CHINESE (I FEEL SAFE SAYING THAT) ONE FORGEING TECKNIQUE SOMETIMES USED WAS TO PASS THE HEATED END OF THE SHAFT THRU THE HANDLE OR HEAD AND PEEN IT OUT TO HOLD IT SECURELY. AS WE CAN'T SEE IF THE MACE HEAD WAS FIXED BY PASSING THE SHAFT THRU AND PEENING I CAN'T COMMENT ON IT. STRANGELY ENOUGH I HAVE FOUND MOST WEAPONS BROUGHT BACK FROM THE BOXER REBELLION TO BE IN MUCH BETTER SHAPE THAN THOSE THAT STAYED IN CHINA. I HAVE HEARD OF WEAPONS BEING BURRIED OR HIDDEN SO PERHAPS THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MACE. THE OTHER WEAPON APPEARS TO HAVE FARED MUCH BETTER. SO PERHAPS ONE WAS BROUGHT BACK IN GOOD SHAPE FROM THE BOXER REBELLION AND THE OTHER ONE BROUGHT BACK LATER OR IT WAS DUG UP FOR THE REBELLION . MYSTERIES MAKE COLLECTING MORE INTERESTING BUT LACK OF PROVENANCE CAN ALSO BE FRUSTRATING.

23rd April 2010, 03:00 PM	#7
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	These ones are tough. Overall, the shapes and proportions seem slightly off, but Chinese things like these are often idiosyncratic. The mace head seems slightly too big, and the hook shape is wrong. It is a bit too wide. The barbed spear shape tip is not something I have seen on antiques, but is not uncommon on fakes. That said, as pointed out, the faceted shaft on the gou (hook) is something I previously would have said is an indication of a genuine antique. Also the faceted "nuts" on the handle appear very good. Josh

25th April 2010, 04:41 PM	#8
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Josh, thanks for your input. Now I really am confused

25th April 2010, 05:57 PM	#9
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Hey Kino (and Josh), maybe I can help with the confusion. I think I have handled these - did you find them in a bucket on 13th in stumptown? If these are the same ones, they seemed fairly authentic to me IMHO - in hand they felt "right". I think that shop tends to clean up the the older, more beat up stuff they get (just an observation - not judging them for it). That could explain why they might seem a little weird (proportions off, etc). It looks like the blade and mace heads were ground new to make the piece "sellable", while the shafts were given less attention to show the age. This might explain the "barbs" on the spear head. If it was deeply rusted at the base of the point, I suspect someone just took it to a grinder or belt sander - it looks like the "barbs" could be "steps" made with a grinder (a little misguided creativity in cleaning it up). It's been a long time since I handled them, and I'm speculating on the pictures. Is there any indication of this on closer inspection? If I had had more money I would've bought them when I saw them, picked up a couple of different pieces instead, but I still really like these guys . Nice pieces.

25th April 2010, 06:23 PM	#10
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	t_c, I did find them in a bucket on 13th. I don't know if the area is called Stumptown. I just happened to drive by the store on my way to getting lost. Are you from that area?

25th April 2010, 06:44 PM	#11
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	I lived there years ago - stopped by the shop last summer when I was up visiting friends. "Stumptown" is just a nickname for Portland (logging reference), but that neighborhood is Sellwood. Getting lost is a good thing sometimes