Is this too long of a blade for a Keris?

apolaki · 15th October 2008, 07:15 AM

Greetings Again, this is my second sword. I was told the "Hulu" is Indonesian origin, but the blade is from the Philippines? Can you pls tell me what you make of it and also a little history, place of origin, era, etc? Thanks soo much!

Thanks again, and I am still learning how to take more clearer pictures..

semar · 15th October 2008, 07:14 PM

hello Apolaki

this keris looks like a moro keris with a madurees hulu and a very bad self made scabbert

regards semar

David · 15th October 2008, 08:27 PM

No Apolaki, the blade isn't "too long", it's a Moro kris and should be sword length. The scabbard isn't high-end, but it is traditional and just fine. What is wrong with the picture is the hilt which you might want to consider replacing with an appropriate Moro hilt.

Bill · 15th October 2008, 09:05 PM

Hi, From the looks of the exposed wood, it doesn't look like it's been tampered with for a very long time. Most likely we will never find out where this kris last resided in it's "working life".
While the blade likely originated in the Southern Philippines, the original hilt will remain unknown.
Just my opinion, I would leave it alone. Nothing wrong with re-matching "correct" dress, if you suspect a collector was switching the hilt from pieces in his collection, but I would suspect other.
This is a very inter-active part of the world & was even more so when this sword was used.

Bill · 15th October 2008, 09:22 PM

Thinking about it, I wouldn't rule out this being the original hilt. While not a exact match, Moro Swords/Cato has examples in fig. 37 & 47, neither which is the norm, but Moro Swords have a tendency to break the norm.
There is definitely a possibility that the hilt was a trade piece, carved else where & ended up in the markets of the PI.
The sword & the hilt both have age & appear to have been around together for a long time.

kulbuntet · 16th October 2008, 12:43 AM

Can it be a borneo(Kalimantan) Keris? Some of then look like moro keris but they are not.

Rick · 16th October 2008, 01:02 AM

More like it's a recently married piece; the kris has a rectangular tang and the Madura hilt has been modified to fit .

Much too out of character to be a Moro modification .

kai · 16th October 2008, 02:24 AM

The bone hilt is resembling Madura style but low quality work - can't be very old. I'd guess that the Moro kris blade ended up in Indonesia and got refitted for selling purposes.

The blade is old and quite worn (mid 19th c.?) and comes from Mindanao. How long is it?

Regards,
Kai

David · 16th October 2008, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Thinking about it, I wouldn't rule out this being the original hilt.

I would rule this out for a few reasons, but first and foremost is that if you look closely i think you can see that the blade once had an asang-asang which i do not believe this hilt would accomodate.

David · 16th October 2008, 03:25 AM

Oh, and since this really is a Moro piece i am going to ship this thread over to the main forum for discussion.

PenangsangII · 16th October 2008, 12:38 PM

IMHO, this is a recent made copy by Madurese of the Filipino kris / Malay Sundang ........ I've seen a few like this one in Kuala Lumpur

Bill · 16th October 2008, 06:14 PM

Well the consensus is that it's a recently matched piece.
I have little doubt the blade is 19thC. The file work on the guard suggests it may be even be mid 19C.
IMO, Malay sundangs generally have a slight tapper to the blade. This one has broad blade (suggesting Moro) for slashing & likely was made to attach stirrups. It may well have once had stirrups but the photos I see don't determine, one way or another, that it once had or never did. One would suspect that if did have for any length of time the metal underneath would have distinct visible signs of different exposure/wear.
Wood surfaces darken with age, the deeper you plane a old board, the lighter it gets. While it may never look like fresh lumber, each swipe of the plane will lighten the wood. Agree that photos can easily show distortion of colors, but those pics suggest to me that wood was carved a long time ago. The entire hilt (wood/metal/bone) shows age. If it was artificially aged, they did a great job.
Once again it would be interesting to see the tang. This one is off center, which is not uncommon for Moro blades. It would appear this tang might have a more narrow rectangular shape. If it showed recent filing to fit the hilt, it would pretty much tell the story. But from a the tangs I've examined, they do vary quite a bit & a narrow/longer tang on a old blade would be the norm.

15th October 2008, 07:15 AM	#1
apolaki Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 160	Is this too long of a blade for a Keris? Greetings Again, this is my second sword. I was told the "Hulu" is Indonesian origin, but the blade is from the Philippines? Can you pls tell me what you make of it and also a little history, place of origin, era, etc? Thanks soo much! Thanks again, and I am still learning how to take more clearer pictures..

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15th October 2008, 07:14 PM	#2
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	hello Apolaki this keris looks like a moro keris with a madurees hulu and a very bad self made scabbert regards semar

15th October 2008, 08:27 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	No Apolaki, the blade isn't "too long", it's a Moro kris and should be sword length. The scabbard isn't high-end, but it is traditional and just fine. What is wrong with the picture is the hilt which you might want to consider replacing with an appropriate Moro hilt.

15th October 2008, 09:05 PM	#4
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi, From the looks of the exposed wood, it doesn't look like it's been tampered with for a very long time. Most likely we will never find out where this kris last resided in it's "working life". While the blade likely originated in the Southern Philippines, the original hilt will remain unknown. Just my opinion, I would leave it alone. Nothing wrong with re-matching "correct" dress, if you suspect a collector was switching the hilt from pieces in his collection, but I would suspect other. This is a very inter-active part of the world & was even more so when this sword was used.

15th October 2008, 09:22 PM	#5
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Thinking about it, I wouldn't rule out this being the original hilt. While not a exact match, Moro Swords/Cato has examples in fig. 37 & 47, neither which is the norm, but Moro Swords have a tendency to break the norm. There is definitely a possibility that the hilt was a trade piece, carved else where & ended up in the markets of the PI. The sword & the hilt both have age & appear to have been around together for a long time.

16th October 2008, 12:43 AM	#6
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Can it be a borneo(Kalimantan) Keris? Some of then look like moro keris but they are not.

16th October 2008, 01:02 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	More like it's a recently married piece; the kris has a rectangular tang and the Madura hilt has been modified to fit . Much too out of character to be a Moro modification .

16th October 2008, 02:24 AM	#8
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	The bone hilt is resembling Madura style but low quality work - can't be very old. I'd guess that the Moro kris blade ended up in Indonesia and got refitted for selling purposes. The blade is old and quite worn (mid 19th c.?) and comes from Mindanao. How long is it? Regards, Kai

16th October 2008, 03:25 AM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Oh, and since this really is a Moro piece i am going to ship this thread over to the main forum for discussion.

16th October 2008, 12:38 PM	#11
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	IMHO, this is a recent made copy by Madurese of the Filipino kris / Malay Sundang ........ I've seen a few like this one in Kuala Lumpur

16th October 2008, 06:14 PM	#12
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Well the consensus is that it's a recently matched piece. I have little doubt the blade is 19thC. The file work on the guard suggests it may be even be mid 19C. IMO, Malay sundangs generally have a slight tapper to the blade. This one has broad blade (suggesting Moro) for slashing & likely was made to attach stirrups. It may well have once had stirrups but the photos I see don't determine, one way or another, that it once had or never did. One would suspect that if did have for any length of time the metal underneath would have distinct visible signs of different exposure/wear. Wood surfaces darken with age, the deeper you plane a old board, the lighter it gets. While it may never look like fresh lumber, each swipe of the plane will lighten the wood. Agree that photos can easily show distortion of colors, but those pics suggest to me that wood was carved a long time ago. The entire hilt (wood/metal/bone) shows age. If it was artificially aged, they did a great job. Once again it would be interesting to see the tang. This one is off center, which is not uncommon for Moro blades. It would appear this tang might have a more narrow rectangular shape. If it showed recent filing to fit the hilt, it would pretty much tell the story. But from a the tangs I've examined, they do vary quite a bit & a narrow/longer tang on a old blade would be the norm.