Scallop-edged Kris

Amuk Murugul · 28th February 2007, 04:17 AM

Hullo everyone,

I will be most grateful for any information on the scallop edge; when it first appeared, where etc.

Thank you.

A. G. Maisey · 28th February 2007, 08:31 AM

Are we talking about the keris of the Philippines, or the keris of Jawa ?

If this query is directed at the keris in general, not specifically at the keris of the Philippines, we should address this question in the keris forum, Keris Warung Kopi.

David · 28th February 2007, 02:41 PM

Alan is right. If you are referring to a feature of Indonesian keris (kris) then we should move this thread. If this is a feature that is specific to Moro kris than it should stay here. But i am afraid that i don't really understand the question to begin with. What exactly do you mean by "scallop edged"? Are you referring to wavy blades?

Amuk Murugul · 28th February 2007, 10:06 PM

Hullo everyone

,

It appears that my original post lacked clarity. I apologise. Perhaps I should have been more specific and also included a picture of what I meant. However, to be fair, my understanding is that, in this forum, the word 'KRIS' (as used in my post heading) is reserved for what I refer to as 'Keris Sundang' (sword-type keris traditionally from Northern Borneo- Southern Philippines) and that 'scallop-edge' is a term commonly understood by 'sword people'. If I misunderstood, I again, apologise.
In any event, broadening the scope from 'kris' to 'keris' should elicit more response and hopefully, increase the benefit

.
BTW... I have attached a photo I just took of a scallop edge. Please forgive the poor quality.
As for the final resting place of my post, I leave it to the discretion of the Moderator.

Thank you.

Battara · 28th February 2007, 10:57 PM

I believe the type of scalloping as seen in the picture started in the late 1930s. This also the time when lamination on these types dissappeared.

Ian · 28th February 2007, 11:23 PM

I think Battara is correct. These forms of kris are most commonly seen post-WWII, having their origin somewhat earlier. The "scalloped" edge results from stock removal, rather than forging a wavy blade. Many of these have rather poor quality, thin blades of doubtful functionality as weapons. It seems they were produced for sale as sourvenirs, especially to foreigners, rather than as weapons within the indigenous culture.

Many of these kris and punal/gunong appear to have been made in the Lake Lanao region of Mindanao (mainly by the Maranao people), which is still a prominent site of manufacture of swords and knives today.

Ian.

A. G. Maisey · 1st March 2007, 01:43 AM

Thanks Amuk Murugal.

I stand corrected.

You are of course correct in what you say about the two different spellings and the way they are used in this forum.

Regretfully I am not attuned to, nor in agreement with this artificial usage.

It is no effort to type "Philippine Keris", nor to type "Javanese Kris".What is the situation if a new boy uses "creese", or "criss", or "karis" ?

Words are only a medium to move thoughts and ideas from one person's head into the head of another.This medium relies on certain conventions in order to represent in written or printed form, the sound of the spoken word.

Where two different words have a similar sound but different meanings, then it is inevitable that confusion shall arise, unless the meaning of the word be made clear by the use of additional words.

When the beauty of language is damaged by artificial applications that have only a narrow field of usage, then it is inevitable that confusion shall arise.

David · 1st March 2007, 02:20 PM

AFAIK there is no hard and fast rule about the usage of the words "keris" and "kris" on these forums. Over time many of us here have adapted "keris" for the Indo blades and "kris" for the Moro so that if Rick or Ian or some other regular uses the word "kris" i can be fairly sure what they mean without further description. But Alan is right that this is a very artificial device that can lead to confusion if it is not established in the discussion at hand. Obviously some of the most reknown writers on the Indo keris have used the spelling "kris" in the titles of their books, though you rarely see "keris" used for the Moro variety. I certainly have no problem with people using any of the spellings Alan named as long as they are clear about the variety they are speaking of.

As for your question about these blades, i am far more used to hearing this type of edge described as "pointy luks" which is probably another incorrect use of language since "luk" refers to the curves on Indo blades, which only adds to the confusion. But if you had asked about "pointy luks" i would have immediately understood your question. It seems we are constantly interchanging terms for the parts of Indo keris and Moro kris in a most inappropriate manner. Even when just discussing Indo keris it should be pointed out that the Javanese name for various parts are not the same as for the Malay peninsula area and they certainly don't apply to Moro kris.
The bottom line is understanding. Is our point understood? Do others know what part of the blade we are referring to or even what region or culture we are talking about? Sometimes it requires a few extra words to make our points clear.

VANDOO · 1st March 2007, 04:14 PM

WE ARE NOT LIKELY TO TRY AND ANSWER A QUESTION IF WE ARE NOT SURE WHAT IS BEING ASKED, IT HELPS TO AVOID GETTING EGG ON THE FACE

A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS IS VERY TRUE SO IF YOU COULD POST SOME GOOD PICTURE OF YOUR SWORD AS WELL AS MEASUREMENTS, MATERIALS USED ON THE HILT (BONE, IVORY,SILVER,GOLD OR GOLD WASH ,ECT.) AS WELL AS A PICTURE OF THE SCABBARD IF YOU HAVE ONE I SUSPECT SOMEONE CAN GIVE YOU AN EVEN BETTER ASSESMENT AND INFORMATION ON THE KRIS.

THE PROBLEMS THAT ARISE IN COMUNICATING DUE TO SPELLING OR RECOGNIZING ONE PERSON OR GROUPS TERMINOLGY IS BAD ENOUGH BUT IT CAN REALLY GET FUNNY WHEN IT IS SPOKEN BUT EVERYONE PRONOUNCES IT DIFFERENT HAVING ONLY SEEN THE FORIGN WORD WRITTEN IN A BOOK

Amuk Murugul · 2nd March 2007, 09:55 PM

Hullo everyone,

Points all taken and will be borne in mind. I am most grateful.
Returning to my original query, asking for information about scalloped-edged/pointy-luk-ed kris/keris:
Thank you Battara and Ian.

Best regards.

28th February 2007, 04:17 AM	#1
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	Scallop-edged Kris Hullo everyone, I will be most grateful for any information on the scallop edge; when it first appeared, where etc. Thank you.

28th February 2007, 10:06 PM	#4
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	Hullo everyone, It appears that my original post lacked clarity. I apologise. Perhaps I should have been more specific and also included a picture of what I meant. However, to be fair, my understanding is that, in this forum, the word 'KRIS' (as used in my post heading) is reserved for what I refer to as 'Keris Sundang' (sword-type keris traditionally from Northern Borneo- Southern Philippines) and that 'scallop-edge' is a term commonly understood by 'sword people'. If I misunderstood, I again, apologise. In any event, broadening the scope from 'kris' to 'keris' should elicit more response and hopefully, increase the benefit. BTW... I have attached a photo I just took of a scallop edge. Please forgive the poor quality. As for the final resting place of my post, I leave it to the discretion of the Moderator. Thank you. Attached Images

28th February 2007, 11:23 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Probably Maranao work I think Battara is correct. These forms of kris are most commonly seen post-WWII, having their origin somewhat earlier. The "scalloped" edge results from stock removal, rather than forging a wavy blade. Many of these have rather poor quality, thin blades of doubtful functionality as weapons. It seems they were produced for sale as sourvenirs, especially to foreigners, rather than as weapons within the indigenous culture. Many of these kris and punal/gunong appear to have been made in the Lake Lanao region of Mindanao (mainly by the Maranao people), which is still a prominent site of manufacture of swords and knives today. Ian.

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28th February 2007, 08:31 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Are we talking about the keris of the Philippines, or the keris of Jawa ? If this query is directed at the keris in general, not specifically at the keris of the Philippines, we should address this question in the keris forum, Keris Warung Kopi.

28th February 2007, 02:41 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Alan is right. If you are referring to a feature of Indonesian keris (kris) then we should move this thread. If this is a feature that is specific to Moro kris than it should stay here. But i am afraid that i don't really understand the question to begin with. What exactly do you mean by "scallop edged"? Are you referring to wavy blades?

28th February 2007, 10:57 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I believe the type of scalloping as seen in the picture started in the late 1930s. This also the time when lamination on these types dissappeared.

1st March 2007, 01:43 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Thanks Amuk Murugal. I stand corrected. You are of course correct in what you say about the two different spellings and the way they are used in this forum. Regretfully I am not attuned to, nor in agreement with this artificial usage. It is no effort to type "Philippine Keris", nor to type "Javanese Kris".What is the situation if a new boy uses "creese", or "criss", or "karis" ? Words are only a medium to move thoughts and ideas from one person's head into the head of another.This medium relies on certain conventions in order to represent in written or printed form, the sound of the spoken word. Where two different words have a similar sound but different meanings, then it is inevitable that confusion shall arise, unless the meaning of the word be made clear by the use of additional words. When the beauty of language is damaged by artificial applications that have only a narrow field of usage, then it is inevitable that confusion shall arise.

1st March 2007, 02:20 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	AFAIK there is no hard and fast rule about the usage of the words "keris" and "kris" on these forums. Over time many of us here have adapted "keris" for the Indo blades and "kris" for the Moro so that if Rick or Ian or some other regular uses the word "kris" i can be fairly sure what they mean without further description. But Alan is right that this is a very artificial device that can lead to confusion if it is not established in the discussion at hand. Obviously some of the most reknown writers on the Indo keris have used the spelling "kris" in the titles of their books, though you rarely see "keris" used for the Moro variety. I certainly have no problem with people using any of the spellings Alan named as long as they are clear about the variety they are speaking of. As for your question about these blades, i am far more used to hearing this type of edge described as "pointy luks" which is probably another incorrect use of language since "luk" refers to the curves on Indo blades, which only adds to the confusion. But if you had asked about "pointy luks" i would have immediately understood your question. It seems we are constantly interchanging terms for the parts of Indo keris and Moro kris in a most inappropriate manner. Even when just discussing Indo keris it should be pointed out that the Javanese name for various parts are not the same as for the Malay peninsula area and they certainly don't apply to Moro kris. The bottom line is understanding. Is our point understood? Do others know what part of the blade we are referring to or even what region or culture we are talking about? Sometimes it requires a few extra words to make our points clear.

1st March 2007, 04:14 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WE ARE NOT LIKELY TO TRY AND ANSWER A QUESTION IF WE ARE NOT SURE WHAT IS BEING ASKED, IT HELPS TO AVOID GETTING EGG ON THE FACE A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS IS VERY TRUE SO IF YOU COULD POST SOME GOOD PICTURE OF YOUR SWORD AS WELL AS MEASUREMENTS, MATERIALS USED ON THE HILT (BONE, IVORY,SILVER,GOLD OR GOLD WASH ,ECT.) AS WELL AS A PICTURE OF THE SCABBARD IF YOU HAVE ONE I SUSPECT SOMEONE CAN GIVE YOU AN EVEN BETTER ASSESMENT AND INFORMATION ON THE KRIS. THE PROBLEMS THAT ARISE IN COMUNICATING DUE TO SPELLING OR RECOGNIZING ONE PERSON OR GROUPS TERMINOLGY IS BAD ENOUGH BUT IT CAN REALLY GET FUNNY WHEN IT IS SPOKEN BUT EVERYONE PRONOUNCES IT DIFFERENT HAVING ONLY SEEN THE FORIGN WORD WRITTEN IN A BOOK

2nd March 2007, 09:55 PM	#10
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	Hullo everyone, Points all taken and will be borne in mind. I am most grateful. Returning to my original query, asking for information about scalloped-edged/pointy-luk-ed kris/keris: Thank you Battara and Ian. Best regards.