Unknown South East Asian knife for comment

[Sajen]

I've won a German online auction for this very unusual knife. For the moment I can only post two poor pictures from the seller. Kembang kacang, double crown at the bolster, laminated blade. Handle is from horn and shows maybe the mystical swan hongsa/hamsa. Any comments and ideas? The knife is 48 cm long.

[Peter Andeweg]

Interesting piece!

I believe it is from Mid or West-Sumatra, probably the Aceh area due to the decoration on the bolster and steep angle similar seen on rencong and other swords and daggers from that region.
The hilt carving seems to show some Batak influence perhaps?

Best! Peter

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Peter Andeweg

Interesting piece!

I believe it is from Mid or West-Sumatra, probably the Aceh area due to the decoration on the bolster and steep angle similar seen on rencong and other swords and daggers from that region.
The hilt carving seems to show some Batak influence perhaps?

Best! Peter

Hi Peter,
Thanks for your comment. I doubt the Sumatra origin a bit. I don't recall ever seeing a kembang kacang on a Sumatran knife, nor does the thick spine of the blade. Also, I have never seen such a handle on a Sumatra knife. I suspect an origin from the area of ​​today's border region between Malaysia and Thailand. But of course I could be completely wrong. As I said, the handle reminds me of the mythical hongsa swan, see picture.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

I'm afraid i was thinking more along Peter's line of Sumatra. I don't see this as a mainland piece at all.

[Athanase]

Hello,

I also find that there is a little batak influence in the handle as well.
The blade is a curious mix. Without the Kembang Kacang it would be a Sewar blade from Aceh with a precious metal crown that would have disappeared leaving only the hollows of its implantation.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

I'm afraid i was thinking more along Peter's line of Sumatra. I don't see this as a mainland piece at all.

Hello David,
No need to worry. There are certainly reasons to think of Sumatran origins, especially the crowns that adorn the bolster. It is definitely an unusual knife. It's the grip in particular that makes me think of the mainland, but I'm far from sure.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Athanase

I also find that there is a little batak influence in the handle as well.
The blade is a curious mix. Without the Kembang Kacang it would be a Sewar blade from Aceh with a precious metal crown that would have disappeared leaving only the hollows of its implantation.

Hello Severin,

It's the grip in particular that unsettles me and makes me think of a mainland origin. I have never seen a similar hilt or blade in all my years of collecting and caring. Can't wait to receive it and handle it!

Regards,
Detlef

[Peter Andeweg]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Peter,
Thanks for your comment. I doubt the Sumatra origin a bit. I don't recall ever seeing a kembang kacang on a Sumatran knife, nor does the thick spine of the blade. Also, I have never seen such a handle on a Sumatra knife. I suspect an origin from the area of ​​today's border region between Malaysia and Thailand. But of course I could be completely wrong. As I said, the handle reminds me of the mythical hongsa swan, see picture.

Regards,
Detlef

An interesting thought, I'm eager to see some more pictures of it when you have received it!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Peter Andeweg

An interesting thought, I'm eager to see some more pictures of it when you have received it!

Be sure that I will post more and better pictures soon as I have received it!

[Sajen]

Finally I have received it and maybe I have to revise my mind of the origin and have to agree with Peter.

Have cleaned the blade on one side, here are some first pictures. There are some chips at the handle the seller don't mentioned, on the other hand, it was not apparent from the seller's pictures that the handle is open worked.

[Sajen]

Could it be an unknown and until now not described Aceh blade?

[Sajen]

I got from a Thai collector that the knife in question is indeed a Southern Thai knife. What he stated I've attached as a picture and also a knife with a similar handle which was offered by a local collectors market in Thailand.

[Sajen]

Another knife, again a different blade style but with a similar handle.

[Rafngard]

Hello All,

If wikipedia is correct, Phatthalung, Trang, Songkhla all have significant historic Malay populations.
I could totally believe that these knives come from the Malay cultural sphere, which of course extends to Sumatra.

Have fun,
Leif

[A. G. Maisey]

Hilt origin I have no issue with, however, is anybody prepared to accept that the blade has a similar geographic origin to that of the hilt?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Hilt origin I have no issue with, however, is anybody prepared to accept that the blade has a similar geographic origin to that of the hilt?

Hello Alan,

Like Leif stated, when my informant is correct is the origin stated from him a mostly from Malay people inhabited region so it's no great surprise that there can be found blades with pamor and kembang kacang.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Detlef.

I know nothing about this type of knife, but in this thread I have now seen several knives with similar hilts and with very different blades. Do all of these variant knives have the same name? Are they all from the same place? Do they all have the same ethnic background?

I believe that you would have noticed that I do not like guessing about origins, I like evidence, not unfounded opinions, so I am not proposing any geographic point of origin for the blade with the double crown.

Any knife begins with the blade.

Any geographic location produces similar knife blades to carry out similar functions.

I can see no similarity at all between these three knife blades.

The knife that began the discussion has a blade with a quite distinctive baluster that is usually associated with a location that is very far from the location where this particular type of hilt supposedly originates.

Do we have any evidence of a knife blade similar to the double crown blade coming from any specific geographic location?

Old blades & old hilts & old scabbards have been combined into usable weapons & tools for as long as tools & weapons have been made, sometimes by users, sometimes by dealers, sometimes by collectors. Not every item that comes into our hands needs to be believed to be as it was originally made, many of these utilitarian items are made by combining unrelated parts simply to make a tool or weapon as needed.

Then again we have the undeniable truth that blade making centres have been shipping blades across S.E. Asia & beyond for hundreds of years --- & still are.

If we believe that its identification as having a Malay ethnic origin is sufficient, well, I guess that is some sort of opinion, but as far as I can see, that opinion can only apply to the hilt, not to the entire knife

Sometimes our questions might not be able to be given supportable answers.

[David]

I am afraid i have the same questions as Alan, Detlef. Neither of the two other knives with a similar hilt resemble this blade. I am afraid i would need to see some further evidence of a Thai knife with provenance that displays these same features before i would be able to accept it as originating in that area. I still think the blade has more in common with Aceh blades than anywhere else.

[Sajen]

Hello Alan,

Like yourself I know next to nothing about the knife in question, so I started this thread to let it discussed here and to get more informations, Peter, David and Séverin give their guesses and Peter was going by the crown bolster and I guess that the other both also going by the laminated blade, the kembang kacang and the double star bolster and stated that a possible origin could be Sumatra. And frankly said I displayed it with my other North Sumatran blades at my wall after these comments.
I never before have seen a similar handle style, short of this the knife in the picture in #13 pop up with a few other blades by a German auction, I won this auction but the small auction house wanted for shipping inside Germany 110,- Euro (!!) I wasn't willing to pay so I never paid the bill and I never got the lot. Finally I received yesterday from a good friend of mine an email with the knife shown in #12. This knife was sold by a Thai collector on a local collectors market. My friend contacted this Thai man and asked about my knife, the answer I have posted, nothing more. I am far away from accepting the given origin but I have given his answer for discussion as another possible origin. This Thai man stated also: "the blade comes in various shapes" and in laminated steel and as well in non-laminated steel.
I never stated based on a single opinion or statement that the knife in question is indeed a Southern Thai knife but until I have a clear proof of the exact origin I take his statement as a possible origin, his statement has the same worth as the other opinions, a clear proof of the origin was no one able to give until now.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

I am afraid i have the same questions as Alan, Detlef. Neither of the two other knives with a similar hilt resemble this blade. I am afraid i would need to see some further evidence of a Thai knife with provenance that displays these same features before i would be able to accept it as originating in that area. I still think the blade has more in common with Aceh blades than anywhere else.

Hello David,

You don't need to be afraid, read my answer to Alan. But like said, no one was able to state a clear evidence of a Sumatran (Aceh) origin, I think we all have never seen a similar knife with clear origin of Sumatra, so all statements (which I appreciate) given here are as good as the one from the Thai collector, I just don't want to rule out a Southern Thai origin. Maybe next time or at one date in future someone will be able to give a proofed origin of the knife in question.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

BTW, the knife in question is 48 cm long, the blade with bolster is 36,3 cm long and the blade is nearly 8 mm thick at the spine behind the crown bolster.