Collectibles or Cultural Heritage?

[Turkoman.khan]

Dear forum members,

I’d like to share a few reflections prompted by a recent article I read on Open OBJET. The featured object there is quite interesting and may be part of a broader trend: pieces from private collections are increasingly catching the attention of curators as “missing links,” helping to fill gaps in the study of Central Asian arms. Link: https://objet.art/as/articles/6888d38e3586bec80e3efe27

Personally, I’ve always questioned the true historical and cultural value of the objects we collect, particularly when it comes to antique arms. Is their worth found in craftsmanship, aesthetic beauty, or perhaps the legendary aura we project onto them? Are these objects truly part of our cultural heritage — or only a select few? Or are they simply "big boys’ toys"?

Should we be actively studying and documenting them, or simply preserving them temporarily before letting them go — without attaching our names or destinies to them?

What do you think?

[Edster]

Quote: Is their worth found in craftsmanship, aesthetic beauty, or perhaps the legendary aura we project onto them? Are these objects truly part of our cultural heritage — or only a select few? Or are they simply "big boys’ toys"?

Should we be actively studying and documenting them, or simply preserving them temporarily before letting them go — without attaching our names or destinies to them?

What do you think?[/QUOTE]

My answer is YES we should and they are. As a limited data base, I think it really boils down to why we visit the Forum as individuals: collectors, students, researchers, lurkers, members of the Forum Community, or just passingly interested in antique arms. It also depends on their collecting goals, means, age and personality. The Forum really has relatively few active collectors. Many have an accumulation of weapons from over the years. Most viewers are just interested in the discussions and dialogue.

As a daily lurker I read posts from all the above. Collectors may accumulate via types and sometimes their variations. Some buy what may suit their current fancy and then may ask the Experts about origin, age, etc. Some few collect types that may support their ethnic background or a regional or historic interest. Most of us cannot afford the really high end items in museums of elite specialized collections.

I think few if any care about personal cultural heritage as the original. owners are unknown and long dead. Interesting culture, but not my own.

Best regards,
Ed

[Tim Simmons]

Objects that take your mind to different worlds like a time machine. Some may also appeal to the eye more than others.

[David R]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Objects that take your mind to different worlds like a time machine. Some may also appeal to the eye more than others.

Yup, you got it!

[RobT]

“Personally, I’ve always questioned the true historical and cultural value of the objects we collect, particularly when it comes to antique arms. Is their worth found in craftsmanship, aesthetic beauty, or perhaps the legendary aura we project onto them? Are these objects truly part of our cultural heritage — or only a select few? Or are they simply "big boys’ toys”?”

I don’t think it is possible for anyone to point to any other object in the world that holds a cross cultural position equal to that of the sword. For example, religious texts are only highly regarded within the confines of their particular religion. Outside of that religion they may be regarded variously as irrelevant, nonsensical, incorrect, or even blasphemous.
The importance of the sword goes beyond “legendary aura”. The sword is the soul of the samurai, the defender (and promulgator) of the faith, the sword of justice, the fateful lightning of the lord, etc.
Until fairly recently, the sword (or its smaller iteration, the knife/dagger), was part of entitled male attire around the world. In many instances, just by looking at the weapon worn, a viewer could deduce the wearer’s group affiliation and the sumptuousness of the weapon accurately displayed the wearer’s wealth and position in society.
When these weapons were openly worn, men were expected to be able to use them. Permission to carry these items stated plainly, “I am a fully enfranchised male in this culture and, as such, under certain culturally proscribed conditions, I have the right to kill another person”. Logically, this right also exposed the wearer to the possibility of the same fate. It follows that an item embodying these potentials and displayed so prominently as part of male dress would have all the craftsmanship and aesthetic beauty the culture could supply and the wearer could afford.
If you are asking whether or not the weapons collected are part of the cultural heritage of the individual collector, the answer is, in most cases, probably not. If however, you are asking if these weapons we collect are part of our cultural heritage as humans, then the answer is undeniably (for better or for worse) yes. Art transcends culture and the greater the art, the greater the transcendence. They are not just “big boys’ toys”. They are vitally important items of human material culture.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Turkoman.khan]

Dear gentlemen,

Thank you for your straightforward answers — I completely agree. I have pretty much the same feelings. This forum is a great platform for intellectual engagement, and while I enjoy observing the flow of discussions, I’d like to raise a few more questions.

Essentially, what we have here is a space for exchanging opinions on certain subjects. Someone introduces a topic — becomes a kind of newsmaker — and others reflect or contribute their knowledge. Each thread grows to a certain extent, often containing both valuable and not-so-relevant information. But does it actually generate new knowledge or expertise?

You can easily come across topics that have gathered thousands of posts over a decade but are now abandoned. Only the dedicated and fantastic technical support from Vikingsword keeps this archive accessible. Personally, I’ve stumbled upon some fantastic insights buried under heaps of less valuable content — mostly recycled versions of what's already published in a handful of outdated books. These sources are rarely reviewed critically, and when they are, it's usually in the style of casual “pub talk,” not reaching a wider academic or public audience.

So my question is: am I the only one who thinks about this? Or do some of you occasionally feel the same?

[TVV]

Interesting philosophical thread. The question of the historical and cultural value of our collectibles is a complex one, as such things are subjective and sometimes hard to evaluate properly. How an object is viewed depends a lot on the person viewing the object and this person's unique background and biases. The question at its core is an emotional one, not a rational one, and a single correct answer to it does not really exist.

I can therefore only speak for myself and here is how I personally view ethnographic arms and armor collecting:
1) It is for my personal enjoyment: for me, this is first and foremost a hobby and something I do for fun. I am just a collector, not a professional dealer or an academician.
2) As collectors we are temporary caretakers of the artifacts we collect. All my swords and daggers will eventually move on to others to enjoy. In the meantime, I will have played my small role in the preservation of these items. I firmly believe that as collectors we play a vital role in the storage and conservation of antiques, many of which would have been destroyed if not for us and our interest in them, but that is a separate topic outside the scope of this thread.
3) The study of the arms we collect and the preservation and enhancement of the knowledge we have about them is just as important as the physical preservation of the items. Understanding the cultural and historical context of our collectibles elevates them from a curiosity to historic artifacts.

I personally find this Forum to play a key role in the last point above. It is a great depository of knowledge (and images too), and an online community for those of us who share an interest in arms and armor where we can discuss all aspects of our hobby in a relaxed manner. If the real question is whether the Forum should be turned into a more structured and academic environment, I would vote NO, because I am afraid that such a change would discourage beginners from joining and participating. There are other places online better suited for those who want a bit more serious approach - I like this Forum the way it is.

[A. G. Maisey]

I am not a frequent participant in discussion of this sub-forum, but I do follow those threads which interest me, and this particular thread is one that strikes cleanly to the heart of my own particular field of interest, which is the pure expression of the Keris, that is, the Keris as found in the Archipelago & Peninsula, and most especially within Java & Bali.

In these societies Keris culture is still alive, the keris forms a part of formal wear, & in many families the pusaka, or heirloom Keris is regarded as a link between the ancestors and the current extended kin-group. Some Indonesian art authorities regard the Javanese/Balinese Keris as the highest form of the plastic arts, and the art of the Keris is taught in Central Java at the Indonesian Institute of the Arts.

Apart from the above, UNESCO has accepted the Indonesian Keris as a part of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity. The Indonesian Keris was inscribed on the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity in 2008.

Within those societies of its origin it is all that the previous contributors to this thread have mentioned, as well as being regarded as a store of wealth, a symbol of authority, and a representative of its custodian or owner.

One thing that is worthy of consideration is this:- in the history of Mankind, the highest development of all technology has been in the production of weaponry. At any time in history, the weapons of any group of people will represent the peak of technological development for those people. The Keris first appeared during the Early Classical Period of Java, it then underwent further development during the East Javanese Period, and had reached its final developed form by the early 16th century. Since that time, the Keris has remained as an integral part of the socio-cultural web of those peoples who have accepted it.

If UNESCO considers the Indonesian Keris to be a part of the cultural heritage of humanity, then I, for one, am not prepared to disagree. Further, I strongly suspect that the accolade accorded to the Indonesian Keris by UNESCO could perhaps also be applied to some other forms of weaponry.

[RSWORD]

Each sword, knife, shield, spear, etc is a tangible link to the past. Each one has a story to tell. Sometimes the story is shrouded in mystery. Not much information, if any at all, will pass down with the object. Through attempting to learn more about each object, in turn, I have learned more about other countries, cultures, traditions, conflicts, decorative techniques, etc than I ever did in school including my college years. That has been one of the most rewarding aspects of being part of a sword's journey. I have met some of the most interesting people that share similar interests that I never would have had the opportunity to meet. I treasure those moments.

So what is their worth? For me, it is not monetarily. It is unraveling the story to learn insights into a period of time lost to history. It is to ponder how it was made. Why was it made. What was its purpose. What was its journey from the time it was made until it found me. What will I learn from it. Who will I meet and get to know because of it. How will I take care and what information can I pass along to the next steward. Their worth is something personal to each individual and that, in of its own, is important.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Each sword, knife, shield, spear, etc is a tangible link to the past. Each one has a story to tell. Sometimes the story is shrouded in mystery. Not much information, if any at all, will pass down with the object. Through attempting to learn more about each object, in turn, I have learned more about other countries, cultures, traditions, conflicts, decorative techniques, etc than I ever did in school including my college years. That has been one of the most rewarding aspects of being part of a sword's journey. I have met some of the most interesting people that share similar interests that I never would have had the opportunity to meet. I treasure those moments.

So what is their worth? For me, it is not monetarily. It is unraveling the story to learn insights into a period of time lost to history. It is to ponder how it was made. Why was it made. What was its purpose. What was its journey from the time it was made until it found me. What will I learn from it. Who will I meet and get to know because of it. How will I take care and what information can I pass along to the next steward. Their worth is something personal to each individual and that, in of its own, is important.

I fully share your thoughts.

Every collector of antique weapons has his own motives and preferences.

For me personally:

- weapons have always been the highest achievement of creative, technical thought and progress in any era (unfortunately).

- as a history buff, I study the era, region, and people to whom a particular item belonged through the prism of ethnographic weapons.

Very often, unidentified or incorrectly attributed items come across, and that's when the most interesting and exciting part begins - an attempt to unravel their origin and history. And this is obtaining and studying a lot of information, communicating with the same caring and "sick" people as I am. This can take a significant amount of time, sometimes years.

Each item in my collection is carefully attributed, and I make a detailed description of it, in addition to technical characteristics - the era, country, people and everything related to this item. And if the item finds another owner, then he also gets my description. Thus, I hope that the time spent, efforts and knowledge gained will be preserved and passed on by relay.

As for outdated books and versions, they certainly need to be reviewed. Not so long ago, it was not possible to obtain and exchange information so quickly. Researchers of the past spent months, or even years, on this.

As for the general academic or public audience, what prevents them from taking part in discussions on forums? Is it beneath them to communicate with "amateurs"?

Unfortunately, there is now a tendency for interest in historical and ethnographic weapons to decline on specialized forums; very few new participants come. And if they do come, they ask, "What is this?"

[naturalist]

Good day Mr. Alan,

Yes they do, the golok lovers have been proposing the idea of golok as cultural heritage.
I have seen the movement around 4-5 years ago, i don't have the knowledge when they start this movement.
But i knew that one of my friend went to Switzerland for that purpose.
Here is the tshirt of last week event, got it one.