New Purchase: A tumbok lada

HughChen · 27th April 2025, 04:38 AM

Just purcahsed from an auction.

Comments, opinions and information invited.

Athanase · 27th April 2025, 10:45 AM

Very nice Tumbok lada from north Sumatra (Gayo ? ).
The scabbard is modern and no in traditionnal shape.

Sajen · 27th April 2025, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

Very nice Tumbok lada from north Sumatra (Gayo ? ).
The scabbard is modern and no in traditionnal shape.

Agreed! And I think that the gilding is also newly done/restored.

A. G. Maisey · 27th April 2025, 11:35 PM

My family background on my father's side is fine art cabinet making, & that inheritance goes back at least 5 generations. As a child & teenager, I learnt a lot about the intricacies of this craft, but when it came time to choose a career I chose a very different path. Still, throughout my life I have had friends who do still work as makers and restorers of high quality cabinet work.

One of my longest friendships was with a gentleman who has now passed, but at his best was reckoned to be the very best in his preferred division of fine art cabinet work. He did a lot of restoration & repair, some was early Australian Colonial, some was from English & European artists of bygone ages.

Something this man once said to me has stuck with me, & it has influenced the way I think about a lot of things, not only fine art cabinet work:-

"---craftsmen have always made items of various qualities, there has always been low quality rubbish produced, just because something is old that does not mean that it is worth putting time into it to return it to use. The age alone of something does not add value:- rubbish is always rubbish, and quality, even if made yesterday, is always quality ---"

I have paraphrased the above, I do not remember the precise words & their order, but what I have written is very definitely the message his words conveyed, and it is pretty much the measure that I apply to my collecting of sharp pointy things.

If I apply this concept to Hugh's dagger, based upon the photos posted, what I believe I am looking at is a relatively recent knife & scabbard, but with an old ivory hilt, I also believe that I am looking at an item of better than usual quality.

In brief, a good quality knife with recent blade & scabbard & a nice old ivory hilt, in my own opinion, totally worthy of collection.

Interested Party · Yesterday, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....what I believe I am looking at is a relatively recent knife & scabbard, but with an old ivory hilt, I also believe that I am looking at an item of better than usual quality.

Mr. Maisey I am not questioning your assessment, but I do have a question on what about the blade itself makes it look recent. What about the blades gives it away? Is it the profile or that the cleaning has not caused enough serrations in the blades as the acid ate away at the softer layers? Is it as recent as the sheath? For the blade what is recent?

The shrubbery on the blade and sheath complement each other whether or not they were made at similar times. To me the designs in the tendril and floral patterns seem to show what Van der Hoop in Indonesian Ornamental Design insinuated was a Chinese influence. The tendrils change from panel to panel. Some show clouds. The tumpals are interesting in that the tendrils almost become flames. On one side of the blades the tendrils are almost anthropomorphic. Hugh I really like the inlay on the blade.

Thanks for posting
-IP

A. G. Maisey · Today, 12:37 AM

I guess that the most accurate answer to this is "experience":- if somebody has seen literally thousands of blades of various types with this style of construction, they usually form an opinion almost instantly on the perceived age. With some things this becomes more difficult, most especially from photos, & I doubt that it would be possible to set forth any sort of formula that could guide age assessment, but there are tells that can help to form an opinion.

With this item under discussion we have a knife that is in absolutely perfect condition, it has been subjected to an aging process, but only a very light aging process; the colour of the materials is in accordance with what we expect from a more recent blade; the cutting edge shows no erosion at all, whilst the form is true to original, there does not appear to have been any blade renovation. Based upon what can be seen in the photo this blade could be anywhere between 150 years old & 3 days old, this type of thing is still made today. In the hand it might be possible to get a tighter fix on age, from a photo this not possible.

In short, it looks very recent.

The gold work is a generic design that is quite common across Indonesia, the triangles are what we call "tumpal" --- it might be of interest to research this motif, it is important --- the tendrils and other design elements occur again & again across many regions.

Yes, there is certainly a lot of Chinese influence in the Archipelago, a very great deal of Chinese influence in Jawa, Bali, Sumatera.

This influence occurred in multiple ways, in many places, at all levels of society and over a very long period of time. However, the evidence of this influence is now well & truly integrated into the societies concerned.

To try to identify what is of Chinese origin, & what is of some other origin is perhaps a slightly misleading exercise at this point in time. What happens in modern Indonesia, and in all of the places that are now Indonesia but were previously regarded as separate but related entities, was & is that the, for example, Javanese society accepts, or has accepted, the outside input, assimilates it, modifies it to harmonise with the existing societal elements, and makes it Javanese, or Balinese, or whatever.

This applies in many fields, including art.

The concept of "recent" varies and is decidedly subjective, it depends upon many factors, but with items such as this knife it can be understood as an opinion that the blade & the scabbard are not old, only the handle shows evidence of age. This of course generates the question of what "old" means, & that is again a subjective matter. I guess it all comes back to having a good understanding of the related field of knowledge.

For example, if we consider the Javanese keris, most Javanese keris authorities regard keris made from the time of the second kingdom of Mataram through to now to be "new" keris. So, in this case that "recent" idea might be thought of as extending over several hundred years, but is a 300 year old keris "recent" as well as "new" , I rather think not, so this comes down to an expert appraisal of the actual item concerned:- is it 3 years old or 300 years old? Like many other skills, appraisal of keris & other SE Asian blades requires time & experience to learn & it cannot be turned into a formula that can be applied by anybody who has not had the requisite training.

The gold work is not inlay, it is kinatah, a form of ornamentation that can be applied in several ways, but is similar in appearance to Indian koftgari work.

27th April 2025, 04:38 AM	#1
HughChen Member Join Date: Aug 2024 Location: China Posts: 155	New Purchase: A tumbok lada Just purcahsed from an auction. Comments, opinions and information invited. Attached Images

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27th April 2025, 10:45 AM	#2
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 417	Very nice Tumbok lada from north Sumatra (Gayo ? ). The scabbard is modern and no in traditionnal shape.

27th April 2025, 11:35 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	My family background on my father's side is fine art cabinet making, & that inheritance goes back at least 5 generations. As a child & teenager, I learnt a lot about the intricacies of this craft, but when it came time to choose a career I chose a very different path. Still, throughout my life I have had friends who do still work as makers and restorers of high quality cabinet work. One of my longest friendships was with a gentleman who has now passed, but at his best was reckoned to be the very best in his preferred division of fine art cabinet work. He did a lot of restoration & repair, some was early Australian Colonial, some was from English & European artists of bygone ages. Something this man once said to me has stuck with me, & it has influenced the way I think about a lot of things, not only fine art cabinet work:- "---craftsmen have always made items of various qualities, there has always been low quality rubbish produced, just because something is old that does not mean that it is worth putting time into it to return it to use. The age alone of something does not add value:- rubbish is always rubbish, and quality, even if made yesterday, is always quality ---" I have paraphrased the above, I do not remember the precise words & their order, but what I have written is very definitely the message his words conveyed, and it is pretty much the measure that I apply to my collecting of sharp pointy things. If I apply this concept to Hugh's dagger, based upon the photos posted, what I believe I am looking at is a relatively recent knife & scabbard, but with an old ivory hilt, I also believe that I am looking at an item of better than usual quality. In brief, a good quality knife with recent blade & scabbard & a nice old ivory hilt, in my own opinion, totally worthy of collection.

Today, 12:37 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I guess that the most accurate answer to this is "experience":- if somebody has seen literally thousands of blades of various types with this style of construction, they usually form an opinion almost instantly on the perceived age. With some things this becomes more difficult, most especially from photos, & I doubt that it would be possible to set forth any sort of formula that could guide age assessment, but there are tells that can help to form an opinion. With this item under discussion we have a knife that is in absolutely perfect condition, it has been subjected to an aging process, but only a very light aging process; the colour of the materials is in accordance with what we expect from a more recent blade; the cutting edge shows no erosion at all, whilst the form is true to original, there does not appear to have been any blade renovation. Based upon what can be seen in the photo this blade could be anywhere between 150 years old & 3 days old, this type of thing is still made today. In the hand it might be possible to get a tighter fix on age, from a photo this not possible. In short, it looks very recent. The gold work is a generic design that is quite common across Indonesia, the triangles are what we call "tumpal" --- it might be of interest to research this motif, it is important --- the tendrils and other design elements occur again & again across many regions. Yes, there is certainly a lot of Chinese influence in the Archipelago, a very great deal of Chinese influence in Jawa, Bali, Sumatera. This influence occurred in multiple ways, in many places, at all levels of society and over a very long period of time. However, the evidence of this influence is now well & truly integrated into the societies concerned. To try to identify what is of Chinese origin, & what is of some other origin is perhaps a slightly misleading exercise at this point in time. What happens in modern Indonesia, and in all of the places that are now Indonesia but were previously regarded as separate but related entities, was & is that the, for example, Javanese society accepts, or has accepted, the outside input, assimilates it, modifies it to harmonise with the existing societal elements, and makes it Javanese, or Balinese, or whatever. This applies in many fields, including art. The concept of "recent" varies and is decidedly subjective, it depends upon many factors, but with items such as this knife it can be understood as an opinion that the blade & the scabbard are not old, only the handle shows evidence of age. This of course generates the question of what "old" means, & that is again a subjective matter. I guess it all comes back to having a good understanding of the related field of knowledge. For example, if we consider the Javanese keris, most Javanese keris authorities regard keris made from the time of the second kingdom of Mataram through to now to be "new" keris. So, in this case that "recent" idea might be thought of as extending over several hundred years, but is a 300 year old keris "recent" as well as "new" , I rather think not, so this comes down to an expert appraisal of the actual item concerned:- is it 3 years old or 300 years old? Like many other skills, appraisal of keris & other SE Asian blades requires time & experience to learn & it cannot be turned into a formula that can be applied by anybody who has not had the requisite training. The gold work is not inlay, it is kinatah, a form of ornamentation that can be applied in several ways, but is similar in appearance to Indian koftgari work.