Kris question to the knowledgeables

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

No I am not ignoring you. I Read the first one and will read the second one later when I get the time. In the first article there is no real evidence to prove that wavy blades were not around at the same time. Straight keris blades have always been more common then wavy blades. It dose not surprise me that the accounts are only of straight blades, and not many accounts as you can see.
As I said such wavy blades did exist in Vedic India so when India warriors arrived in Indonesia they would have had such weapons, may not be common but dose not mean there were none. Indonesians have two blades, one for common every day use and pusaka. I dont see why it could not have been the same back then.
Yes I know that there are hypothesis but the truth is this information is lost so you either forget about the whole thing and dont try to even understand the symbolism or you do your best to work it out. Someone mentioned that I am mixing in my Western way of thinking; actually I have studied eastern philosophy for some time now and know that everything I have said fits with an Eastern way of thinking. As many have said the keris is many things to many people and they dont all agree.

Personally I think that the problem will be solved with a trip to the Museum archives. To find the common Indian ancestor of these blades. I will do so when I get the time.

Pusaka,

I think you are missing the point here. I'm not a student of keris (or kris), and consequently have no "dog in this fight". Perhaps I can offer some objective advice.

It does not appear to me that anyone is dismissing your thoughts out of hand. On the contrary, you are bringing some interesting and thought-provoking ideas to the table.

The problem I percieve arises from your desire for definitive answers. Quite simply, those are not available right now.

Disagreements are inevitable when discussing these weapons and that's fine: I feel it stimulates and enriches a discussion. You may find your position is better recieved if you avoid couching it in absolute statements of fact.

Best,
Andrew

[nechesh]

Pusaka, i honestly wish you the best of luck with your search. I also believe that this search should continue, though IMO nothing concrete will ever come out of it. But theories are a good thing to as long as we continue to understand them as such and not try to present them as fact. Not to discourage you, but keep in mind that a guy like Alan Maisey has been studying keris for 50 yrs. He apprenticed and was trained by one of the last great kraton empus and has dedicated his life to the study and understanding of keris. So when his research is inconclusive it is not for lack of searching.
Just so you understand, i don't dismiss all the theories you have put forth here and also believe, like you, that there is a strong Vedic connection to be found in the symbolism of the keris. As has been pointed out, one of the biggest problems in researching this stuff is that there are very few records to draw from on the origins of the keris. The culture has evolved greatly over the centuries and has gained much new symbolism over the years. As i stated before, this new symbolism is not invalid. It applies to the current culture. I doubt, for instance, that much of what Boedhi Adhitya layed out on the symbolism of the keris actually would apply in Mojopahit times, though some of it probably passed through over the centuries. It is, however, probably right on for those using the keris today as a tool for spiritual growth, and as such, completely valid. Don't stop looking, thinking and connecting. You might not always be right, but that, i am afraid, is the nature of this study.

[BSMStar]

One of the greatest of human experiences is the search for truth and knowledge. Wisdom comes from in-depth knowledge, experience, and the ability to discern. The keris is shrouded in a thousand years of unrecorded change. From the first proto-keris that was traded, copied, modified, influenced by Hinduism, Islam, different kingdoms, regions and peoples… to the keris being made today, the only true constant for the keris… is change. The keris of today is richly immersed in culture and tradition that changes from location to location, shrouded in mysterious meaning and perhaps enhanced with mystical powers.

I am of the belief that in order to understand the keris and the origins of the keris, the secret is embedded with the people of the keris. To seek out examples of different keris from different times will still leave a mystery, a void… oh look, a new shape… why was that done, what does this mean? To know the people of the time, to know what they know… then will understanding be found. After all, isn’t that the purpose of this forum, to seek and share understanding?

I think this has been one of the most insightful threads, a small glimpse into the meaning of the ricikans. Thank you Antonio for starting this tread! And thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding us of the wisdom of our elders and to have the ears to listen.

[MABAGANI]

btw Great additional historical info and photos of bas-reliefs in Dominique Buttin's site "Malay World Edged Weapons" http://old.blades.free.fr/

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

I would appreciate if you gentlemen could enlighten me on the meanings of what I call lattice work in the right and the left side of the flaring of the blade. I'm most curious to learn as I am aware they have meanings.
It appears to me that the right side has somehow the shape of an elephant?
Also, is the origin of the Kris has been established?
Indonesia or Philippines?
Who influenced who?
Is it essentially a Muslim sword?

Short answers to a tall order-
Assuming the keris arrived in the Philippines and paralleled development according to traces of early written history from the 9th century as evidence of influence and connectedness to neighboring kingdoms,
the changes from keris to kris occurred after the Muslim conversion in the 15th century as early as the 17th century (note: one of the earliest accounts of the kris as a cut and thrust weapon was found in writings by Dampier)
the longer explanation of why and where the evolution from keris to kris occurred is in another thread,
some of the symbolic meanings were pre-Islamic,
depending on which Moro group one is researching,
the symbolism differs from bird, naga to elephant etc. (some detailed meanings noted in this thread by keris experts)
Moro royalty recorded relationships to kingdoms of 15th century Johore, Melaka, Sumatra and Brunei.
One can not state the kris is "essentially" a Muslim sword because the kris and keris in the Philippines were also used and made by non-Muslims (examples appear among the Visayans, Katipunan, etc.)
imho

[Pusaka]

One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag

http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag

http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

Pusaka, your link to a commercial site is interesting, but does not really support your position. What "records" are you referring to? (Mind you: I'm genuinely interested, and not necessarily disagreeing with your theory.)

You've been down the meteorite path on this board before, and it did not end well.


Everyone please maintain civility lest this thread suffer similar fate.

[marto suwignyo]

This discussion has turn to a very interesting and maybe important direction for keris study, I feel.

I will to give my compliment to Mr. Pusaka for his original way to think about the keris and for his understanding to see the influence of Indian culture in the origin of the keris.

The origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. There are many theories and beliefs, and maybe now we can never know for truly where from comes the keris. But if we will to give a theory about keris origin, and if we will that people maybe accept that the theory we have is a little bit true, we must also to give evidence and/or a logic reasons that our theory is worth to consider as maybe true. Just an idea without evidence and without logic reasons is for pleasant discussion to fill in time if we drink coffee.

In this Forum several years past was also a discussion about keris origin. In this discussion appears this remark:-

"Actually,what I set out to do when I commenced my investigations into this matter was to try to establish the existence of a keris like dagger in India prior to an appearance in Jawa.My research into archaic forms was thorough.I failed to establish this existence ,and as a consequence ,was left with only Prambanan II."

This remark made by Mr. Alan Maisey. He talking about his early research to discover keris origin.

For people who interest in ideas about keris origin maybe is a good idea to read this thread. Here is the link:-
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000607.html

About meteor in the keris blade.

This also something that many times people discussion. In Jawa we believe that keris have make with meteor since long ago. But this our belief, this has never been prove, except for the keris from Prambanan meteor and that only to begin about maybe 1800. For people with the interest in using meteor for making keris blade maybe a good idea to read the work of Mr. Bennet Bronson :- "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris", publish in "Historical Metallurgy" Vol.21.No.1, 1987.

Mr. Pusaka again I will to give you my compliment for your original way to think. I hope you do not lose your interest with the keris and that you will to continue your study with the serious and academic approach.

[Andrew]

Outstanding post, Marto. Thank you for the sage words.

[Rick]

One could also suggest that Mr. Pusaka may benefit and further his overall knowledge from a thorough reading of Robert Elgood's fine book Hindu Arms and Ritual isbn# 90 5972 020 2 .

[nechesh]

Marto, sensible and informative words as usual. Can you make any suggestions on where i might get a hold of Mr. Bronson"s "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris". After a frustrating round of googling i came up with no usable results.

[Pusaka]

Thank you Marto Suwignyo for your kind words and yes I will read that document you suggest.

If we consider for a moment that the keris is from Vedic India then perhaps we should consider written Sanskrit and its relation to the keris. One of the shortest written prayers in Sanskrit is OM. OM is considered to be a vibration which fills the universe, the very essence of the creator. It is composed of 3 Sanskrit letters, A,U,M. The first character is A which consists of two characters joined together, the first looks like a 3 and the second looks like a n. Above the n character is a curved character which represents the letter U. Finally the last character looks like an O and represents the Sanskrit letter M. AUM, pronounced Om is a very important prayer in Vedic Indian times as it is at present. Examining the markings filed into the Keris I suddenly realised that it was Sanskrit writing. Looking at this particular Keris the prayer Om is repeated 4 times. One thing that should be realised is that the Sanskrit letter M has no dimension in space and so can be represented as a dot or a circle. It represents the inner universe while the other characters represent the outer universe. Looking at the picture you can see how the markings on the keris are in fact Sanskrit characters.
All my study’s so far point to a strong Vedic Indian influence. I hope people can now understand how ridiculous it is to say the keris is a Muslim creation.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I hope people can now understand how ridiculous it is to say the keris is a Muslim creation.

I don't think anyone has said this here.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I don't think anyone has said this here.

No they have not but I have met several that have. It is common among Silat practitioners. I think some schools even teach their students that the keris is a Muslim creation.

[MABAGANI]

I don't think the sound of the universe can be credited to a mere mortal creation either but a reflection of its influence is plausible...hmm...oops...i mean...om...lolz.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

I don't think the sound of the universe can be credited to a mere mortal creation either but a reflection of its influence is plausible...hmm...oops...i mean...om...lolz.

Yes you are correct. That is the meaning of Om though, very similar to the Christian idea of logos, "In the beginning was the Word (sound,vibration), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1)


http://www.shaivam.org/mantra_pranava.htm

[MABAGANI]

My point was I don't deny Hindu/Budhist influence, nor do I deny Islamic influence depending on specific keris or kris, its possible to hold multiple truths within a statement without having theories conflict, but general statements encompassing every keris/kris becomes questionable.

[John]

Pusaka, interesting thoughts on the probable presence of "OM" symbols at the greneng area etc of Keris. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind too but have been looking forward to guys who have "walked more miles" in keris deliberations to hopefully decode the meanings more entirely or if they mean something else.

How do the texts on 2,3,4 and 5 read?

[nechesh]

I like the way you think Pusaka. This is a very interesting theory. Unfortunately i think you have overlooked a couple of things. Sanskrit has been written in a number of different scripts over history; Bramhi, Kharoshti, and currently modern Devanagari, which is different from classical Devanagari. Your AUM script is a modern one, which i believe is the one put forth by the American Sanskrit Institite. It is very different from the sanskrit script used at the time of the origins of the keris (at least 600-700 yrs. ago, perhaps more).
The area on the keris know as the Ron Dha (pronounced Dho) is meant to represent the Javanese (Kawi) letter Dha. Ergo it's name. The script for this letter has also changed over the centuries and the current Surakarta Dha is not the same as the ancient dha of centuries before. We can see this reflected in the Ron Dha of ancient keris as compared to more recent blades. So the Ron Dha has also changed over the years.
So what you have done is attempt to match a 20th century script against a 19th century symbol , which looks nothing like the script or the symbol from 500+ years ago.
Still we are left with the question of what does (did) the Dha in the Ron Dha represent. Though i am reluctant to definitively say, i think you might be on the right track that it refers to a Godly concept.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

No they have not but I have met several that have. It is common among Silat practitioners. I think some schools even teach their students that the keris is a Muslim creation.

Hi Pusaka,

Muslims (I am one) who tell you the keris is a Muslim creation are mistaken as the keris was in Jawa and Nusantara long before the Islam religion reached the archipelago. I don't think any school teaches that the keris is a Muslim creation. In Malaysia, the words masuk-Melayu which mean to enter (become) Malay have for a long time been synonimous to masuk-Islam (to enter Islam) and all Malay culture is seen as an expression of Islam, including the keris. This might be the source of confusion.

However the Muslim Saints who spread Islam in Nusantara did not totaly destroy the culture that was present there when they came, rather they preserved everything that could be sanctioned by Islam. So, for examples, the satiya widow burning was out but the keris as a symbolic weapon stayed: the wilah and the ganja which were originally the lingga and the yoni became the syahadat Tauhid and the syahadat Rasul. The keris luk 17 becomes representing the 17 raka'ats performed in sholat each day by the sallafi Muslims, and so on.

In the silat world the silat originating in Jawa, Madura or Bali (al keris making centres) don't use the keris as a weapon but in Malaysia it does. However, post-modern silat is seeing the keris being used as a weapon in West Java style fighting, taught by a Californian silat man who tries to tie his school with, amongst others, the traditional Cimande of Tarik Kolot. In the real Cimande the keris is never used as a weapon. Neither is the kujang, which is a specific Sundanese 'tosan-aji' used for farmers. However you can now learn Californian kujang jurus, which is 'most devastating' .

Your post on the MAP forum about the relation to the script AUM and the janggut, the kembang kacang and greneng and ron dha nunut on the keris in the photo is interesting. Just remember that these ricikan are relatively new in kerisology and the first kerises were simple betok and brojols. The words ron dha nunut mean 'an added leaf of the letter dha'. Dha is the 12th character in the Jawa script hanacaraka. Several Muslim 'saints' who spread Islam in Jawa and Nusantara were also great keris designers, collectors and silat teachers hence the thinking that keris originated in Islam.

Warm salams to al,
KC

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by John

Pusaka, interesting thoughts on the probable presence of "OM" symbols at the greneng area etc of Keris. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind too but have been looking forward to guys who have "walked more miles" in keris deliberations to hopefully decode the meanings more entirely or if they mean something else.

How do the texts on 2,3,4 and 5 read?

Sorry, what do you mean text 2,3,4 & 5 ?

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Sorry, what do you mean text 2,3,4 & 5 ?

Pusaka, i believe John is referring to your numbered illustrations.
John, the texts of 2 and 3 are the modern sanskrit letters for AUM linked together side by side to look like a Ron Dha Nunut.
And 4 and 5 are the ron dha and jenggot of the modern keris that Pusaka displayed.

[Pusaka]

Nechesh you say that the symbol I used for Om is modern, look again, did I use the modern symbol for Om?
Here is the Tibetan symbol for Om, slightly different in that the second character is inverted. The Tibetan symbol is certainly not modern.

Left: tibet

[Mans]

Very interesting thread and debate.....

But, how if the keris revealed came from the Animism and Dynamism period (because the Keris believed has the Tuah or supranatural power) before the Hindu, Budha or Islam period
Then, on the Hindu period, the keris has analyzed an given some symbols as the Ricikans which more real, beauty and has the sense...
So, Hindu, Budha and Islam period just continuing the keris cultures from the past period
.... or, the keris came from Hindu period, but with enthusiasm of Animism and Dynamism soul and pulling out the dogmatic values

[nechesh]

Hi Pusaka. Here's a link to the Javanese Alphabet.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/javanese.htm
Take note of the letter Dha. This alphabet dates back to the 4thC. It is certainly derivative of ancient Brahmi and so there is certainly a Vedic connection. But we have yet to find any physical evidence that the "modern" keris, with all it's present ricikan such as the Ron Dha, is older than, say, 14thC. So it seems likely that the Ron Dha was developed in Jawa at that time where regardless of Vedic influences, the Javanese language and alphabet was in full swing. Devanagari script was developed around the 11thC primarily to write Sanskrit from ancient Brahmi script. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/devanagari.htm
This early form of Devanagari was similar, but not exactly like the form with which you are familar.
As far as i know, the Ron Dha has always been related to the Javanese letter Dha in Jawa and the surrounding areas. Though there is clearly a resemblance to the symbol of the AUM i think this is probably just a very interesting coincidence, or perhaps synchonicity. I see no reason why this would be considered secret knowledge or why the Javanese would pretend this feature represented a Dha when it was really secretly the AUM. What is perhaps more occult is the intended meaning of the letter Dha in this circumstance. That might be a more valuable avenue of study.
None of this is to deny that the keris was first developed as weapon of a primarily Vedic culture. As other influences such as Islam moved into the area the keris symbolism evolved and changed. Stil, elements of Jawa's pre-vedic animistic culture persisted as well. The beliefs of the area can never be clearly defined as merely this or that. It is much more complex.

[Pusaka]

I used a variant of Om which is not modern by any account. It is difficult to say if the markings on the keris are Sanskrit or Javanese. Remembering that the Javanese alphabet would have been influenced by Sanskrit. If you chose the Javanese then the symbols are meaningless but if you chose the Sanskrit then there is meaning in those markings. One thing for sure is that they have meaning and personally I believe it is a variant of Om, the name of god.

[John]

Interesting, though the "dha" shown at the link does not seem to have a pronounced tail of an OM symbol. Still it's intriguing to find a probable Javanese alphabet on such a popular icon as keris yet to be have it's meaning decoded in it's country of origin? So the mystery remains unsolved...

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

It is difficult to say if the markings on the keris are Sanskrit or Javanese. Remembering that the Javanese alphabet would have been influenced by Sanskrit. If you chose the Javanese then the symbols are meaningless but if you chose the Sanskrit then there is meaning in those markings.

Pusaka, you are certainly welcome to your personal beliefs, but the notion that this symbol is meaningless if it represents the Javanese Dha is somewhat arrogant on your behalf. Just because you are not aware of it's meaning does not imply that such meaning is nonexistent. Do you really think you have such a grasp of the Javanese culture to make such a statement?
Why do think it is difficult to say whether this "symbol" is Sanskrit or Javanese when the Javanese have been saying for centuries that it is indeed Javanese?

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Pusaka, you are certainly welcome to your personal beliefs, but the notion that this symbol is meaningless if it represents the Javanese Dha is somewhat arrogant on your behalf. Just because you are not aware of it's meaning does not imply that such meaning is nonexistent. Do you really think you have such a grasp of the Javanese culture to make such a statement?
Why do think it is difficult to say whether this "symbol" is Sanskrit or Javanese when the Javanese have been saying for centuries that it is indeed Javanese?

If the symbol is Javanese it is strange indeed that any Javanese person I asked what it meant they had no clue. There are many Javanese members in this forum and have they revealed what its meaning is? Its meaning is certainly not secret so I question why nobody seams to know the answer to what it actually means. If it is Javanese surely a Javanese person would understand it, but do they?
Using the Javanese alphabet you can account for only one letter, hardly a through explanation is it, what about the rest, can you explain that???

[MABAGANI]

If a keris or kris form developed during an Islamic era and region, wouldn't it be considered a Muslim creation? We can make the general statement that the keris originated in Southeast Asia with Hindu/Budhist influences, but depending on certain forms, era and place, etc. wouldn't these variables dictate the specific designation of the creation?