Mark on Short Knife With S-Quillon Guard

[dana_w]

Do you recognize the mark on this short knife with a serpentine quillon guard? It looks like a crowned two headed flying dragon with a shield on its chest. What maybe letter N (maybe an I & V) is on the bottom left, with o and R on the bottom right.

The overall length of the knife is 8 ⅝ inches, and the width at the quillons is 2 inches. The blade is 5 6/8 inches long, and ⅛ inch wide where it meets the guard. The grip is ⅞ inch diameter at its widest point.

These photos are copyright (c) 2015 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved

[Ian]

Mark:

I think this resembles the double-headed eagle mark of the Imperial Tsars of Russia. I have posted a picture of that mark below. Notice the crown that bridges the two heads of the eagle. This appears to be present in your mark also. The talons should be holding an orb and scepter, but corrosion on the knife blade conceals that area.

Ian.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Ian

Mark:

I think this resembles the double-headed eagle mark of the Imperial Tsars of Russia. I have posted a picture of that mark below. Notice the crown that bridges the two heads of the eagle. This appears to be present in your mark also. The talons should be holding an orb and scepter, but corrosion on the knife blade conceals that area.

Ian.

Thanks Ian. It does look like a close match. I am not real happy with any of the photos I've taken of the mark, but here are two more.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Ian

Mark:

The talons should be holding an orb and scepter, but corrosion on the knife blade conceals that area.

Ian.

Thanks again Ian. I finally have a photo that I am happy with. I now believe that it is a double-headed eagle holding an orb and scepter as you suggested. That would make the letter on the left an "I", and on the right an "R".

[Iain]

Probably way off with this, but if this is a Russian imperial eagle, didn't Peter the Great decree that imperator should be used instead of tsar? Not sure if they used the IR abbreviation, but the 18th century would be a fit for the style of the dagger?

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Iain

Probably way off with this, but if this is a Russian imperial eagle, didn't Peter the Great decree that imperator should be used instead of tsar? Not sure if they used the IR abbreviation, but the 18th century would be a fit for the style of the dagger?

I'd love to find some way to date this knife to the 18th century. I've been thinking mid 19th century. Would love to hear what others think and find a similar example that can be dated.

[Ian]

Dana:

I hope that we have not focused too much on a possible Russian origin for this emblem. The double-headed eagle is a much-used insignia, and Wikepedia notes the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle

The double-headed eagle is a common symbol in heraldry and vexillology. It is most commonly associated with the Byzantine Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Serbian Empire, the Russian Empire and their successor states. In Byzantine heraldry, the heads represent the Emperor having authority over both secular and religious matters, Byzantine emperors were regarded as Christ's viceregent on Earth. It also signified the dominance of the Byzantine Emperors over both East and West. In the Holy Roman Empire's heraldry, it represented the church and the state. Several Eastern European nations adopted it from the Byzantines and continue to use it as their national symbol to this day.

There are many options to explore. An 18th C origin seems reasonable to me based on the appearance of the knife and scabbard.

Ian.

[Rick]

18th easily .
Or incredible forgery .

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Ian

Dana:

I hope that we have not focused too much on a possible Russian origin for this emblem. The double-headed eagle is a much-used insignia, and Wikepedia notes the following:

The double-headed eagle is a common symbol in heraldry and vexillology. It is most commonly associated with the Byzantine Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Serbian Empire, the Russian Empire and their successor states. In Byzantine heraldry, the heads represent the Emperor having authority over both secular and religious matters, Byzantine emperors were regarded as Christ's viceregent on Earth. It also signified the dominance of the Byzantine Emperors over both East and West. In the Holy Roman Empire's heraldry, it represented the church and the state. Several Eastern European nations adopted it from the Byzantines and continue to use it as their national symbol to this day.

There are many options to explore.

Ian.

Thanks Ian, I did see that. This site had good information on the House of Hapsburg.

http://www.habsburger.net/en/chapter...blem-habsburgs

And there are things like the Coat of arms of Montenegro:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-...Montenegro.svg

But I do think your original guess is probably right.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Rick

18th easily .
Or incredible forgery .

Thanks Rick. I've been telling people c1850, but that I am just guessing. I also think that it could be a woman's personal defense weapons, but again, I am just guessing.