Taking walrus hilted sword out of Germany

erlikhan · 4th November 2014, 09:14 PM

Hi. Any information, especially ones from personal experiences are requested about CITES in practise.
Can i put a walrus ivory hilted yataghan sword into a luggage,take it into the plane as a checked bag in a Germany airport and receive it safely in my final destinayion (which will not be an EU country)? Or if it is really risky in Germany,what about neighboring EU countries?
( if the sword and the ivory parts will look antique without any doubt)
Regards

Gavin Nugent · 4th November 2014, 09:40 PM

In my opinion, mail it.

In todays political environment why draw flies

Gavin

erlikhan · 4th November 2014, 09:48 PM

But i have been told that mailing can be more risky. They go through postal custom control as well.

Lee · 5th November 2014, 12:25 AM

There is an old thread on CITES that might offer some insight. The safest course of action, of course, is to jump through the hoops and get a CITES permit.

estcrh · 6th November 2014, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

There is an old thread on CITES that might offer some insight. The safest course of action, of course, is to jump through the hoops and get a CITES permit.

Runjeet recently sent me a kard (England to USA) with a walrus ivory hilt, he was able to get a CITES permit so it is possible.

erlikhan · 6th November 2014, 05:53 PM

İs it free in ENgland? In Germany it costs something like 100-150 euros and a long time.

T. Koch · 6th November 2014, 08:35 PM

Hi Erlikhan - just a quick jab from me as I'm on the way out the door. I've been working for the CITES M.A. in Denmark for 7 years+.

Walrus is Appendix II/Annex B, so to take the Yataghan with you on a flight out of the EU you will need a CITES-export permit from the German M.A. - be sure however, to in your app. to emphasize that it is a personal item = purpose code "P".

If you choose to send it, go for purpose code "T" (commercial) and your contact in the US might need a corresponding CITES-import permit, but he should really ask the USF&W before you guys do the transfer.

I've found the contact info for the German M.A. for you here;

Bundesamt für Naturschutz
(Federal Agency for Nature Conservation)
Abteilung I.1
Management Authority to CITES
Konstantinstrasse 110
53179 BONN

Tel: +49 (228) 84 91 13 11
Fax: +49 (228) 84 91 13 19
Email: citesma @ bfn.de

If you have any questions, please post them - will try to answer in detail tomorrow.

One love, - Thor

T. Koch · 6th November 2014, 08:39 PM

...and I agree with Gavin in the regard that most CITES enforcers aren't too sharp at worked materials ID and in my experience 99% of customs officers couldn't tie their shoelaces without a flowchart.

Then again, very rarely you have nerd-flies - like me - and we will pounce on your ivory like flies on... well a Yataghan!

IMO, Gav said it: Why chance it.

Peace, - Thor

erlikhan · 20th November 2014, 04:20 PM

Thanks a lot. The same question for UK : What about there??

Jens Nordlunde · 20th November 2014, 07:11 PM

Most of it depends on the country you want to export from/import to, and the country where the plane has to land on the way to you. I have a feeling that the last may be a problem, although most would not regard this as a problem.
I would play it safe and try to get a CITE certificate. Should you loose the yathagan on the way, you would not be a happy man.
Jens

erlikhan · 20th November 2014, 07:17 PM

Hi Jens. it will take off from London and land in Istanbul, direct flight. The item will look obviously old not letting any suspicion agewise. To take certificate costs 3 weeks extra hotel stay and 70 gbp fee.

spiral · 20th November 2014, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

Hi Jens. it will take off from London and land in Istanbul, direct flight. The item will look obviously old not letting any suspicion agewise. To take certificate costs 3 weeks extra hotel stay and 70 gbp fee.

If customs did notice it at Heathrow, they would know it was ivory.

How old it is or appears will be immaterial to them without certification. You would lose it.

But they might not notice it. There very busy.

I would arrange certification.

spiral

VANDOO · 21st November 2014, 02:15 AM

WELL THIS POST HAS DECIDED ME ON WHAT TO DO WITH ALL MY OLD PRE CITES IVORY ITEMS BE THEY CARVINGS OR SWORDS I WILL HAVE THEM CREMATED WITH ME. I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED TO SELL THEM TO OTHER COLLECTORS SO THEY WOULD BE ENJOYED A FEW HUNDRED YEARS MORE BUT THAT WOULD BE CRIMINAL UNDER THESE LAWS. UNFORTUNATELY DESTRUCTION OF SUCH ITEMS IS THE ONLY LEGAL COURSE OR DONATING THEM TO THE ONES WHO MADE UP THE BAD LAWS IN THE FIRST PLACE SO THEY CAN DISPLAY THE EVIL THINGS OR DESTROY THEM. IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE FROM HERE AS SUCH GOVERNMENTS LIVE TO CONFISCATE, FINE AND IMPRISON THE INNOCENT AS WELL AS THE GUILTY WITH NO LOGIC OR SENSE OF RIGHT OR WRONG.

FORTUNATELY MOST OF MY COLLECTION IS LOW END SO NOT MUCH WILL BE LOST DUE TO IVORY LAWS. BUT WAIT IN FUTURE WOOD COULD BE BANNED TO SAVE THE TREES THAT ARE LONG DEAD AS WELL.

Tim Simmons · 21st November 2014, 09:01 AM

I do not think I would risk exporting or importing tooth or tusk. Just deal in your own country with other collectors. We need to get in to our heads that unless beautifully carved it is just another material like wood, often used just like a chunk of wood, nothing special. Not worth high prices anymore. A habit of the past like women putting white lead on their faces.

spiral · 21st November 2014, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

BUT WAIT IN FUTURE WOOD COULD BE BANNED TO SAVE THE TREES THAT ARE LONG DEAD AS WELL.

Cites covers many timbers & this has been enforced many times in the USA for many years.

linkyto 2nd Fed raid on Gibson guitars.

spiral

Jens Nordlunde · 21st November 2014, 05:19 PM

The only thing I can tell you is, that every time I have bought something in England it was examined by the English customs, as well as by the Swiss customs, and I had to fill in formulars stating thet it is more than 100 years old, that it has no cultural value and, and, and... None of the weapons I have imported had ivory hilts.
Lets say the the English customs think the hillt is of plastic, not likely but just let us say so, what when it comes to the Turkish customs? They also know the CITES rules.
It is really a very unfortunate situation you are in, and I dont know what I would do. If the sword is in England and you dont what to wait/pay for the CITES certificate, it may be better to sell it in England. Painful no doubt, but better to get your money back than loose both money and the sword - and maybe get a fine as well.
I am sorry that I cant help you, I wish I could.

erlikhan · 21st November 2014, 09:19 PM

Jens, Turkish customs don't check most of the incoming passangers & bags. Even if they do, I know they mainly try to catch black money,drugs, electronics, phones, furs etc. If they see some raw ivory or rhino, of course they will seize them and will interrogate you. But none of the officers will doubt if an antique Turkish sword's hilt is original old or might be a Trojan horse used for ivory smuggling or something likewise. I don't have any hesitation about Turkish leg of the trip. If I tried to take a walrus hilted antique sword out of Turkey with me, I would probably get in trouble but not particularly because of the walrus hilt but because it can be categorized as a cultural national asset as a whole item.
I didn't get one thing. You say English officers always examined your swords. You declared the swords yourself at the check in counter ?

Sancar · 21st November 2014, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

Jens, Turkish customs don't check most of the incoming passangers & bags. Even if they do, I know they mainly try to catch black money,drugs, electronics, phones, furs etc. If they see some raw ivory or rhino, of course they will seize them and will interrogate you. But none of the officers will doubt if an antique Turkish sword's hilt is original old or might be a Trojan horse used for ivory smuggling or something likewise. I don't have any hesitation about Turkish leg of the trip. If I tried to take a walrus hilted antique sword out of Turkey with me, I would probably get in trouble but not particularly because of the walrus hilt but because it can be categorized as a cultural national asset as a whole item.
I didn't get one thing. You say English officers always examined your swords. You declared the swords yourself at the check in counter ?

Erlikhan, this is a very interesting subject for me. Because I always heard that it was next to impossible to bring any kind of blade with you to Turkey from abroad, antique or modern reproduction, because they were classified as weapon by Turkish custom office. I heard all kind of horror stories. And because of that I always hesitated to buy anything from my out-of-country trips. What is your experience with Turkish customs? Am I worried for no reason, that I can buy a sword and put it in my bag and return to Istanbul via airplane without any problems; or is is as bad as I'm told?

Jens Nordlunde · 21st November 2014, 10:36 PM

No what I bought in England was sent by TNT courier post, and it was all checked - at one time it took weeks before it was released - but that was only one time. Last time it took hours or maybe a day.
What I dont understand is, that you wrote that it was in Germany, but lately you wrote that it was in England - have I misunderstand something?
I do wish that I could help you further, but I dont know how.
All the best wishes
Jens

erlikhan · 21st November 2014, 11:52 PM

Yes, I asked about Germany first. I bidded in an auction there, bought an antique dagger with walrus hilt, put it into the luggage and checked in the plane. Picked it from the carousel in Istanbul. I wonder if I was lucky, very lucky, or just was not very unlucky according to statistics.
And now I wonder United Kingdom experiences of forum members about the same subject. I have not bought any particular item from there yet, but I plan to.

4th November 2014, 09:14 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Taking walrus hilted sword out of Germany Hi. Any information, especially ones from personal experiences are requested about CITES in practise. Can i put a walrus ivory hilted yataghan sword into a luggage,take it into the plane as a checked bag in a Germany airport and receive it safely in my final destinayion (which will not be an EU country)? Or if it is really risky in Germany,what about neighboring EU countries? ( if the sword and the ivory parts will look antique without any doubt) Regards Last edited by erlikhan; 4th November 2014 at 09:51 PM.

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4th November 2014, 09:40 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	In my opinion, mail it. In todays political environment why draw flies Gavin

4th November 2014, 09:48 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	But i have been told that mailing can be more risky. They go through postal custom control as well.

5th November 2014, 12:25 AM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 917	There is an old thread on CITES that might offer some insight. The safest course of action, of course, is to jump through the hoops and get a CITES permit.

6th November 2014, 05:53 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	İs it free in ENgland? In Germany it costs something like 100-150 euros and a long time.

6th November 2014, 08:35 PM	#7
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi Erlikhan - just a quick jab from me as I'm on the way out the door. I've been working for the CITES M.A. in Denmark for 7 years+. Walrus is Appendix II/Annex B, so to take the Yataghan with you on a flight out of the EU you will need a CITES-export permit from the German M.A. - be sure however, to in your app. to emphasize that it is a personal item = purpose code "P". If you choose to send it, go for purpose code "T" (commercial) and your contact in the US might need a corresponding CITES-import permit, but he should really ask the USF&W before you guys do the transfer. I've found the contact info for the German M.A. for you here; Bundesamt für Naturschutz (Federal Agency for Nature Conservation) Abteilung I.1 Management Authority to CITES Konstantinstrasse 110 53179 BONN Tel: +49 (228) 84 91 13 11 Fax: +49 (228) 84 91 13 19 Email: citesma @ bfn.de If you have any questions, please post them - will try to answer in detail tomorrow. One love, - Thor

6th November 2014, 08:39 PM	#8
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	...and I agree with Gavin in the regard that most CITES enforcers aren't too sharp at worked materials ID and in my experience 99% of customs officers couldn't tie their shoelaces without a flowchart. Then again, very rarely you have nerd-flies - like me - and we will pounce on your ivory like flies on... well a Yataghan! IMO, Gav said it: Why chance it. Peace, - Thor

20th November 2014, 04:20 PM	#9
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thanks a lot. The same question for UK : What about there??

20th November 2014, 07:11 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Most of it depends on the country you want to export from/import to, and the country where the plane has to land on the way to you. I have a feeling that the last may be a problem, although most would not regard this as a problem. I would play it safe and try to get a CITE certificate. Should you loose the yathagan on the way, you would not be a happy man. Jens

20th November 2014, 07:17 PM	#11
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Hi Jens. it will take off from London and land in Istanbul, direct flight. The item will look obviously old not letting any suspicion agewise. To take certificate costs 3 weeks extra hotel stay and 70 gbp fee.

21st November 2014, 02:15 AM	#13
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELL THIS POST HAS DECIDED ME ON WHAT TO DO WITH ALL MY OLD PRE CITES IVORY ITEMS BE THEY CARVINGS OR SWORDS I WILL HAVE THEM CREMATED WITH ME. I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED TO SELL THEM TO OTHER COLLECTORS SO THEY WOULD BE ENJOYED A FEW HUNDRED YEARS MORE BUT THAT WOULD BE CRIMINAL UNDER THESE LAWS. UNFORTUNATELY DESTRUCTION OF SUCH ITEMS IS THE ONLY LEGAL COURSE OR DONATING THEM TO THE ONES WHO MADE UP THE BAD LAWS IN THE FIRST PLACE SO THEY CAN DISPLAY THE EVIL THINGS OR DESTROY THEM. IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE FROM HERE AS SUCH GOVERNMENTS LIVE TO CONFISCATE, FINE AND IMPRISON THE INNOCENT AS WELL AS THE GUILTY WITH NO LOGIC OR SENSE OF RIGHT OR WRONG. FORTUNATELY MOST OF MY COLLECTION IS LOW END SO NOT MUCH WILL BE LOST DUE TO IVORY LAWS. BUT WAIT IN FUTURE WOOD COULD BE BANNED TO SAVE THE TREES THAT ARE LONG DEAD AS WELL.

21st November 2014, 09:01 AM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,812	I do not think I would risk exporting or importing tooth or tusk. Just deal in your own country with other collectors. We need to get in to our heads that unless beautifully carved it is just another material like wood, often used just like a chunk of wood, nothing special. Not worth high prices anymore. A habit of the past like women putting white lead on their faces.

21st November 2014, 05:19 PM	#16
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The only thing I can tell you is, that every time I have bought something in England it was examined by the English customs, as well as by the Swiss customs, and I had to fill in formulars stating thet it is more than 100 years old, that it has no cultural value and, and, and... None of the weapons I have imported had ivory hilts. Lets say the the English customs think the hillt is of plastic, not likely but just let us say so, what when it comes to the Turkish customs? They also know the CITES rules. It is really a very unfortunate situation you are in, and I dont know what I would do. If the sword is in England and you dont what to wait/pay for the CITES certificate, it may be better to sell it in England. Painful no doubt, but better to get your money back than loose both money and the sword - and maybe get a fine as well. I am sorry that I cant help you, I wish I could.

21st November 2014, 09:19 PM	#17
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Jens, Turkish customs don't check most of the incoming passangers & bags. Even if they do, I know they mainly try to catch black money,drugs, electronics, phones, furs etc. If they see some raw ivory or rhino, of course they will seize them and will interrogate you. But none of the officers will doubt if an antique Turkish sword's hilt is original old or might be a Trojan horse used for ivory smuggling or something likewise. I don't have any hesitation about Turkish leg of the trip. If I tried to take a walrus hilted antique sword out of Turkey with me, I would probably get in trouble but not particularly because of the walrus hilt but because it can be categorized as a cultural national asset as a whole item. I didn't get one thing. You say English officers always examined your swords. You declared the swords yourself at the check in counter ?

21st November 2014, 10:36 PM	#19
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	No what I bought in England was sent by TNT courier post, and it was all checked - at one time it took weeks before it was released - but that was only one time. Last time it took hours or maybe a day. What I dont understand is, that you wrote that it was in Germany, but lately you wrote that it was in England - have I misunderstand something? I do wish that I could help you further, but I dont know how. All the best wishes Jens

21st November 2014, 11:52 PM	#20
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Yes, I asked about Germany first. I bidded in an auction there, bought an antique dagger with walrus hilt, put it into the luggage and checked in the plane. Picked it from the carousel in Istanbul. I wonder if I was lucky, very lucky, or just was not very unlucky according to statistics. And now I wonder United Kingdom experiences of forum members about the same subject. I have not bought any particular item from there yet, but I plan to.