Interesting Ottoman (?) Knife!

Gess · 8th July 2010, 05:44 PM

Hi
What do you say, dear colleagues?

Ottoman, Balkan or Syria?
I have seen signs of all three influences.

Year 1282 (1865), the other inscription to read and translate, I can not.
HANDLE LIKE SHAMSHIR OF BROWN HORN DECORATED WITH BRASS AND RED CORALS, LENGHT 36 CM

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2010, 05:48 PM

The pierced cutout in blade center seems to an Albacete (Spain) feature, and the knife does reflect Ottoman styling. Perhaps this might be from North African regions, Spanish Morocco?

Gavin Nugent · 9th July 2010, 12:24 AM

A beautiful piece. It does seem to have Spanish influence in aspects of manufacture, an overall Moorish appearance.

I like the cut outs. Look to the large centre one, if I was to 'look at clouds', I would see this as a cannon releasing a cannon ball with a puff of smoke and flames from the barrel and touch hole.

Again the ole serpent creeps into the design too.

I hope someone can read the script and offer a more solid direction.

Gav

ariel · 9th July 2010, 04:26 AM

Very nice.

Gess · 9th July 2010, 01:48 PM

Thanks friends!
To me he is the same, just like it. Now all hope for our polyglots in Arabic, can be - in the Turkish language? What is written on the blade? What country belongs Dagger?

Help me please!!!

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2010, 03:24 PM

Hang in there Gess, eventually we will get translation, I suppose there are lots of people on vacation this time of year

This truly is a nice dagger, and naturally the Ottoman influence is profoundly present as all of these areas in North Africa, Arabian littoral, Middle East, Balkans were under that suzerainty. The serpent or dragon head on the quillon terminal which Gav noted is also a distinct Ottoman feature.

The most distinct characteristic is the openwork in the center of the blade which is pretty much a hallmark of Albacete, Spain knives. The presence of this feature would not normally occur on blades outside the Spanish sphere in the Meditteranean in my opinion.
The Ottoman style hilt, which is profusely decorated in red coral and the circled dot motif reflects a distinct Moorish characteristic in often strategically avoiding empty space by applying heavy decoration. The red coral is a well known and highly regarded Maghrebi affectation, and many weapons are beautifully embellished with these.
My inclination is that this dagger is from Spanish regions in Morocco.
I am curious about the date, 1865, did you determine that from some of the blade inscription?
I hope our faithful translator Dom will be coming in on this soon, in the meantime, thank you so much for sharing this beauty with us!!!

All best regards,
Jim

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2010, 03:32 PM

I have recently seen a number of general purpose knives and cutlery that share many of the design features that can be seen in this knife.

These pieces were with a gentleman from Bosnia who claimed that all pieces originated from Bosnia.

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2010, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have recently seen a number of general purpose knives and cutlery that share many of the design features that can be seen in this knife.

These pieces were with a gentleman from Bosnia who claimed that all pieces originated from Bosnia.

Hi Alan,
I have seen Bosnian knives also with much of the dotted circle motif and of course distinct Ottoman features. Were any of the blades with the openwork feature noted ?

Best regards,
Jim

Gess · 9th July 2010, 03:48 PM

Hi Jim, thanks for the reply.
Year visible on the last picture (on the blade). I read it yourself, and later saw in the comments seller are the same figures - 1282.
Regards

Vaarok · 9th July 2010, 06:30 PM

As a collector more of fairly modern projectile weapons versus blades, I must enthusiastically concur on the cutout appearing to be a cannon firing. A very nice blade and an ingenious decoration.

chregu · 9th July 2010, 08:04 PM

Hallo
This its my Piece.I think the Spanish influence for large, because of the perforations.
gruss Chregu

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2010, 09:46 PM

Very nice example you show there Chregu!
It seems agreed that the Spanish influence here is pronounced, and as I earlier noted, the openwork piercing in the center of the blade is a characteristic feature of the renowned work of edged weapons of Albacete in Southeast Spain.

I thought it would be interesting to look a little into what these cutout designs might represent. R.D.C. Evans describes the plug bayonets made there, many of which have this feature which he describes as a dumb bell shape. The punched or pierced holes in configuration are also a decorative feature seen on many of these weapons.

The edged weapon makers of Albacete have a very long standing tradition of many types of fine edged weapons, and of course many were intended for hunting, including the plug bayonet, which were used by Spain probably longer than anywhere else.

The bladed polearms used in hunting, especially boar hunting weapons, often utilized a crossbar or toggle past the end of the blade to prevent the animal from making its way up the shaft to the hunter. Many of these weapons had a pierced aperture to insert and remove the toggle, though it is unclear why one would want it to be removable, unless perhaps if the weapon would double in warfare.

Evans recounts some of the rather romanticized notions about the openings being to hold smeared poison, a rather nonsensical theory often proposed concerning many medieval daggers with pierced opening or slots. Since many of these apertures are fitted with brass inserts, there is even a suggestion of these openings being for hunters whistles?

In my opinion, these were simply a decorative feature that might be a vestigial reference to the pierced openings for hunting toggles on the polearms that may have been produced in Albacete along with other edged weapons. Perhaps the shape was to allow insertion of a crossbar with this type cross section. Just a theory, and would of course like to hear other opinions. It does seem that a center steeped in the tradition of Albacete, that such a trademark feature might well be emplaced.

Whatever the case, it seems more established that these extremely attractive knives were probably produced in Spanish Morocco, carrying the traditions of Albacete in thier motif.

All best regards,
Jim

****finis******

A. G. Maisey · 13th July 2010, 01:47 AM

Jim, what this Bosnian gentleman had was a set of six matched knives and forks which he said dated from about 1930. He also had two or three small general purpose knives. The cutlery had plain blades, the one of GP knives had some simple blade engraving similar to what I can see on this blade here discussed.

The handles on all the pieces --- knives, forks, GP knives -- were all of exactly the same style as I see here, that is they were horn, planar, curled pommel, inlaid in the same design and style. On one of the GP knives the curled pommel had been given the shape of (I think) a bird's head.

In short, they looked extremely similar to what I see here, but none had blade piercing.

As you know, this sort of thing is not my field, even though I have collected edged weaponry other than keris during the entire period I have had an interest in keris. I am not in any way attempting to convince anybody that the knife pictured here is Bosnian, quite frankly it is of very little interest to me where it might come from. I am only providing the information that I have seen pieces that bear a very close resemblance to this knife that were identified as Bosnian by a person from Bosnia.

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2010, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jim, what this Bosnian gentleman had was a set of six matched knives and forks which he said dated from about 1930. He also had two or three small general purpose knives. The cutlery had plain blades, the one of GP knives had some simple blade engraving similar to what I can see on this blade here discussed.

The handles on all the pieces --- knives, forks, GP knives -- were all of exactly the same style as I see here, that is they were horn, planar, curled pommel, inlaid in the same design and style. On one of the GP knives the curled pommel had been given the shape of (I think) a bird's head.

In short, they looked extremely similar to what I see here, but none had blade piercing.

As you know, this sort of thing is not my field, even though I have collected edged weaponry other than keris during the entire period I have had an interest in keris. I am not in any way attempting to convince anybody that the knife pictured here is Bosnian, quite frankly it is of very little interest to me where it might come from. I am only providing the information that I have seen pieces that bear a very close resemblance to this knife that were identified as Bosnian by a person from Bosnia.

Hi Alan,
Thank you for responding to my question, and I knew you were providing the information as evidential for perspective on assessment on this hilt style.
The reason I asked about the openwork was of course to determine if either other regions had adopted similar openwork via trade contacts, or perhaps if the knives might have been misidentified by the informant.
I very much appreciate the input, and always consider all information as important in comprehensive research on any weapon. It often amazes me how many key clues have turned up in the most unusual context, and as often as not , far outside the fields where I have been searching.
Your experience and knowledge is in no way confined to a single field, no matter what you say

!!! and thank you for always sharing.

All the very best,
Jim

8th July 2010, 05:44 PM	#1
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Interesting Ottoman (?) Knife! Hi What do you say, dear colleagues? Ottoman, Balkan or Syria? I have seen signs of all three influences. Year 1282 (1865), the other inscription to read and translate, I can not. HANDLE LIKE SHAMSHIR OF BROWN HORN DECORATED WITH BRASS AND RED CORALS, LENGHT 36 CM Attached Images Last edited by Gess; 8th July 2010 at 06:06 PM.

9th July 2010, 12:24 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	beautiful A beautiful piece. It does seem to have Spanish influence in aspects of manufacture, an overall Moorish appearance. I like the cut outs. Look to the large centre one, if I was to 'look at clouds', I would see this as a cannon releasing a cannon ball with a puff of smoke and flames from the barrel and touch hole. Again the ole serpent creeps into the design too. I hope someone can read the script and offer a more solid direction. Gav

9th July 2010, 08:04 PM	#11
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	Hallo This its my Piece.I think the Spanish influence for large, because of the perforations. gruss Chregu Attached Images

9th July 2010, 09:46 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Very nice example you show there Chregu! It seems agreed that the Spanish influence here is pronounced, and as I earlier noted, the openwork piercing in the center of the blade is a characteristic feature of the renowned work of edged weapons of Albacete in Southeast Spain. I thought it would be interesting to look a little into what these cutout designs might represent. R.D.C. Evans describes the plug bayonets made there, many of which have this feature which he describes as a dumb bell shape. The punched or pierced holes in configuration are also a decorative feature seen on many of these weapons. The edged weapon makers of Albacete have a very long standing tradition of many types of fine edged weapons, and of course many were intended for hunting, including the plug bayonet, which were used by Spain probably longer than anywhere else. The bladed polearms used in hunting, especially boar hunting weapons, often utilized a crossbar or toggle past the end of the blade to prevent the animal from making its way up the shaft to the hunter. Many of these weapons had a pierced aperture to insert and remove the toggle, though it is unclear why one would want it to be removable, unless perhaps if the weapon would double in warfare. Evans recounts some of the rather romanticized notions about the openings being to hold smeared poison, a rather nonsensical theory often proposed concerning many medieval daggers with pierced opening or slots. Since many of these apertures are fitted with brass inserts, there is even a suggestion of these openings being for hunters whistles? In my opinion, these were simply a decorative feature that might be a vestigial reference to the pierced openings for hunting toggles on the polearms that may have been produced in Albacete along with other edged weapons. Perhaps the shape was to allow insertion of a crossbar with this type cross section. Just a theory, and would of course like to hear other opinions. It does seem that a center steeped in the tradition of Albacete, that such a trademark feature might well be emplaced. Whatever the case, it seems more established that these extremely attractive knives were probably produced in Spanish Morocco, carrying the traditions of Albacete in thier motif. All best regards, Jim **finis**** Last edited by Jim McDougall; 10th July 2010 at 07:07 PM.

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8th July 2010, 05:48 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	The pierced cutout in blade center seems to an Albacete (Spain) feature, and the knife does reflect Ottoman styling. Perhaps this might be from North African regions, Spanish Morocco?

9th July 2010, 04:26 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very nice.

9th July 2010, 01:48 PM	#5
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Thanks friends! To me he is the same, just like it. Now all hope for our polyglots in Arabic, can be - in the Turkish language? What is written on the blade? What country belongs Dagger? Help me please!!!

9th July 2010, 03:24 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Hang in there Gess, eventually we will get translation, I suppose there are lots of people on vacation this time of year This truly is a nice dagger, and naturally the Ottoman influence is profoundly present as all of these areas in North Africa, Arabian littoral, Middle East, Balkans were under that suzerainty. The serpent or dragon head on the quillon terminal which Gav noted is also a distinct Ottoman feature. The most distinct characteristic is the openwork in the center of the blade which is pretty much a hallmark of Albacete, Spain knives. The presence of this feature would not normally occur on blades outside the Spanish sphere in the Meditteranean in my opinion. The Ottoman style hilt, which is profusely decorated in red coral and the circled dot motif reflects a distinct Moorish characteristic in often strategically avoiding empty space by applying heavy decoration. The red coral is a well known and highly regarded Maghrebi affectation, and many weapons are beautifully embellished with these. My inclination is that this dagger is from Spanish regions in Morocco. I am curious about the date, 1865, did you determine that from some of the blade inscription? I hope our faithful translator Dom will be coming in on this soon, in the meantime, thank you so much for sharing this beauty with us!!! All best regards, Jim

9th July 2010, 03:32 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I have recently seen a number of general purpose knives and cutlery that share many of the design features that can be seen in this knife. These pieces were with a gentleman from Bosnia who claimed that all pieces originated from Bosnia.

9th July 2010, 03:48 PM	#9
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Hi Jim, thanks for the reply. Year visible on the last picture (on the blade). I read it yourself, and later saw in the comments seller are the same figures - 1282. Regards

9th July 2010, 06:30 PM	#10
Vaarok Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 28	As a collector more of fairly modern projectile weapons versus blades, I must enthusiastically concur on the cutout appearing to be a cannon firing. A very nice blade and an ingenious decoration.

13th July 2010, 01:47 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Jim, what this Bosnian gentleman had was a set of six matched knives and forks which he said dated from about 1930. He also had two or three small general purpose knives. The cutlery had plain blades, the one of GP knives had some simple blade engraving similar to what I can see on this blade here discussed. The handles on all the pieces --- knives, forks, GP knives -- were all of exactly the same style as I see here, that is they were horn, planar, curled pommel, inlaid in the same design and style. On one of the GP knives the curled pommel had been given the shape of (I think) a bird's head. In short, they looked extremely similar to what I see here, but none had blade piercing. As you know, this sort of thing is not my field, even though I have collected edged weaponry other than keris during the entire period I have had an interest in keris. I am not in any way attempting to convince anybody that the knife pictured here is Bosnian, quite frankly it is of very little interest to me where it might come from. I am only providing the information that I have seen pieces that bear a very close resemblance to this knife that were identified as Bosnian by a person from Bosnia.