A "gaucho" knife for your perusal

Lee · 27th July 2008, 12:36 PM

This is a follow-on to Chevalier's thread about "gaucho" knives. While I must concede that some of these really do look like 'overgrown ornate silverware,' there are others which I would contend escape this description and I submit this example for your consideration.

This is the very first "gaucho" knife I collected, very early in my collecting in the front end of the 1970s and it remains my favorite even though I now have several showing 'finer' workmanship and in better condition.

The quality blade is quite worn from repeated sharpening with a remaining 'GEN' inscription suggesting a German origin. The back of the blade is adorned with file work.

I interpret this as a fairly rustic creation from a platero in the countryside, rather than from a fine shop in the city. I will have to ask for help as to dating it, though I will argue for the 19th century. An Argentinian origin appears unambiguous.

The hilt is adorned with a large serpent (anaconda?) and the Argentinian crest. The scabbard includes two men in 19th century military dress and, I presume, Lady Liberty with an Argentinian flag. The stamped inscription "Napoleon III" is more mechanical and with sharper edges, so I interpret this as a later 'enhancement.' This scene also features an Argentinian flag.

I will now let the artist's own work speak for itself through the haze of my again failed photographic attempts...

Berkley · 27th July 2008, 03:17 PM

While I freely admit that South American history is not my strong point, a bit of Googling around yielded some interesting results. The figure labelled "Napolean III" is not a bad likeness. (I agree that the sans serif font of the stamp appears modern, but the letters appear to be well aligned, not individually stamped as is often the case with post hoc "embellishments"). The other male figure bears more than a passing resemblance to Orelie-Antoine de Tounens, a French adventurer who styled himself "King of Auraucania and Patagonia" during the same period when Napoleon III was supporting the Emperor Maximillian in Mexico.
The figures could be simply generic military men as you suggest, but there is at least some resemblance to actual historical figures relating to a common theme of French intervention in 19th Century New World politics.
Edited to add:Further research indicates that sans serif or grotesque type was in use at a much earlier date than I realized. Note its use in a French publication c. 1898. And the Phrygian cap worn on Liberty's head is associated with both the French Revolution and the Argentinian coat of arms (among others).

Chris Evans · 28th July 2008, 02:41 PM

Hi Lee,

I don't know if I can add all that much to Berkley's meticulous detective work, but here it goes, though it would be nice if we could have a full pic of the blade.

1. It looks like a `puñal'

2. the brand `...GEN' suggests SOLINGEN, There were a number of Creole blades ending in SOLINGEN, though I looked through Dagas de Plata but couldn't see a brand that resembled it. German blades were and are still highly valued in Sth America.

3. The style of the silver-work does look like dating back to the 1860s and does not look like a high end ornamental dress accessory, rather a knife that was used, but probably belonging to someone reasonably well paid.

4. The script of `NAPOLEON III'is a bit of a teaser. Napoleon III's excursion into Mexico overlapped with the US civil war, and unfolded during the years 1862-67. I don't know how the region reacted to it, Perhaps Gonzalo could add something as he is an expert on Mexican affairs.

5. Lee's suggetion of linking this piece with Orelie is a fascinating idea because he was around at about the same time and he was french.

6. The other great regional upheaval around that time was the war of the triple alliance against Paraguay by Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil in 1864-70 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Triple_Alliance. There was not so indirect British intervention, but am not aware of any involvement by France.

7. If we can't clear this mystery, this is one instance where I would be tempted to drop a line to Abel Domenech.

Cheers
Chris

Gonzalo G · 29th July 2008, 12:17 AM

I do not have much to add, also. Yes, it looks like a slender puñal criollo. In those times the most expensive part of a silver mount was the handworking of silver, or silversmithing, as silver itself was not much expensive and Argentina was a producer of this metal (the name of this country comes from the latin word "argentum", or silver, so it means "silvery"). Seeing the work on this knife, it doest looks expensive, although it´s historic value is important. So, it could be carried by a soldier or other person involved in military matters, related to the wars and other civil conflicts which Argentina, as many of the old colonies in the world, had in the 19th Century. Berkeley´s pointings are very valuable. The ornamentation is very "militant".

Argentina´s attitude toward napoleonic dynasty is interesting. Napoleón I was seen as the bearer of the ideas of liberty, of a new world free of the monarchy and it´s oppression over the colonies, and as the ally against the common enemy: Spain. Most of the civil codes of America´s countries are molded over the napoleonic civil code, and the same apply over the justice system as a whole, which is also the indirect legacy of the roman right. Also, it must be taken on account that the Geat Britain had many military interventions against argentineans with colonial purposes, interventions that argentineans frustrated with the use of war. And the napoleonic dynasty was a traditional enemy of the Great Britain.

It must be pointed, also, that a group of argentinean "corsairs" gave some steps to free Napoleón I from it´s confinement in british hands, but that proyect never went too far. British supremacy on the sea could not be ignored.

Though the Great Britain and France tried to breake an argentinean blockade over Paraguay, an intent frustrated by argentineans in the Battle of Obligado, it happened in 1945, before the coup of Luis Napoleon Bonaparte, latter Napoleon III, to size the power in France. Even as Napoleon III made a military alliance with the Great Britain since the Crimean War, I don´t think he never attempted any intervention,or collaborated in any intervention, agains Argentina. So, that is the situation of the napoleonic dynasty in front of argentinean eyes, as far I can see. I don´t think the French Intervention in México, ordered by Napoleon III, has any consecuence on this situation, as Argentina and México are almost as as far as Mexico from Europe, and had no political close relations or military alliances.

Maybe the reference to Napoleon III on the knife allows to locate it between 1850-1870, but there would be other opinions.
My best regards

Gonzalo

Lee · 29th July 2008, 03:09 PM

Thank you all for your comments. I apologize for failing to include a full length image of the blade and correct that now.

For many years I never polished the silver mountings, but at one point I gave in to my late mother's desire to see the silver shine. As I recall, before that there was little blackening in the base of the stamped letters of the 'Napoleon III' inscription. I personally believe that the inscription is entirely spurious and added later and represents one person's somewhat indelible comment of who the picture represents. The difference of technique, the precision of the inscription, its greater sharpness and how it is forced into an existing space all signal to me that it has nothing to do with the platero who mounted this knife. Personally, I believe that these are 'folk art' representations of military leaders in Argentinean conflicts of the early and mid nineteenth century.

Chris Evans · 30th July 2008, 07:16 AM

Hi Lee,

I must admit that the `NAPOLEON III' looks a bit suspect, but one can never know for sure.

You have a nice antique Creole knife.

Something that has often puzzled me about a lot of these knifes, antique facons included, is that so many had very smooth handles, hardly able to afford a decent grip if covered in blood. One would have expected a knife that was to be used for butchering, or fighting to have a rough textured grip, as found on medieval and renaissance daggers.

Cheers
Chris

Gonzalo G · 5th August 2008, 03:25 PM

There is a possibility, but I think the figure represents what the owner of the knife wanted. I don´t think the election of the figure would be decided by the silversmith. This hilt is customized to the taste of someone, it do not comes from the usual stock.

Chris, I have seen many quaddaras, kindjals or qamas with the same somewhat squared hilts, or frankly squared, and more or less terse surfaces. It is not so uncommon. Sometimes the criollos have exagonal hilts, to perform a better grip.
My best regards

Norman McCormick · 6th August 2008, 05:20 PM

Hi,
The tail swallowing snake is probably a representation of the 'Ouroboros'. Just a thought as the symbolism is pertinent to many different cultures.
Regards,
Norman.

27th July 2008, 12:36 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	A "gaucho" knife for your perusal This is a follow-on to Chevalier's thread about "gaucho" knives. While I must concede that some of these really do look like 'overgrown ornate silverware,' there are others which I would contend escape this description and I submit this example for your consideration. This is the very first "gaucho" knife I collected, very early in my collecting in the front end of the 1970s and it remains my favorite even though I now have several showing 'finer' workmanship and in better condition. The quality blade is quite worn from repeated sharpening with a remaining 'GEN' inscription suggesting a German origin. The back of the blade is adorned with file work. I interpret this as a fairly rustic creation from a platero in the countryside, rather than from a fine shop in the city. I will have to ask for help as to dating it, though I will argue for the 19th century. An Argentinian origin appears unambiguous. The hilt is adorned with a large serpent (anaconda?) and the Argentinian crest. The scabbard includes two men in 19th century military dress and, I presume, Lady Liberty with an Argentinian flag. The stamped inscription "Napoleon III" is more mechanical and with sharper edges, so I interpret this as a later 'enhancement.' This scene also features an Argentinian flag. I will now let the artist's own work speak for itself through the haze of my again failed photographic attempts... Attached Images

27th July 2008, 03:17 PM	#2
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	While I freely admit that South American history is not my strong point, a bit of Googling around yielded some interesting results. The figure labelled "Napolean III" is not a bad likeness. (I agree that the sans serif font of the stamp appears modern, but the letters appear to be well aligned, not individually stamped as is often the case with post hoc "embellishments"). The other male figure bears more than a passing resemblance to Orelie-Antoine de Tounens, a French adventurer who styled himself "King of Auraucania and Patagonia" during the same period when Napoleon III was supporting the Emperor Maximillian in Mexico. The figures could be simply generic military men as you suggest, but there is at least some resemblance to actual historical figures relating to a common theme of French intervention in 19th Century New World politics. Edited to add:Further research indicates that sans serif or grotesque type was in use at a much earlier date than I realized. Note its use in a French publication c. 1898. And the Phrygian cap worn on Liberty's head is associated with both the French Revolution and the Argentinian coat of arms (among others). Last edited by Berkley; 27th July 2008 at 11:00 PM.

29th July 2008, 03:09 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Thank you all for your comments. I apologize for failing to include a full length image of the blade and correct that now. For many years I never polished the silver mountings, but at one point I gave in to my late mother's desire to see the silver shine. As I recall, before that there was little blackening in the base of the stamped letters of the 'Napoleon III' inscription. I personally believe that the inscription is entirely spurious and added later and represents one person's somewhat indelible comment of who the picture represents. The difference of technique, the precision of the inscription, its greater sharpness and how it is forced into an existing space all signal to me that it has nothing to do with the platero who mounted this knife. Personally, I believe that these are 'folk art' representations of military leaders in Argentinean conflicts of the early and mid nineteenth century. Attached Images

30th July 2008, 07:16 AM	#6
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 678	Hi Lee, I must admit that the `NAPOLEON III' looks a bit suspect, but one can never know for sure. You have a nice antique Creole knife. Something that has often puzzled me about a lot of these knifes, antique facons included, is that so many had very smooth handles, hardly able to afford a decent grip if covered in blood. One would have expected a knife that was to be used for butchering, or fighting to have a rough textured grip, as found on medieval and renaissance daggers. Cheers Chris Last edited by Chris Evans; 30th July 2008 at 11:41 AM.

28th July 2008, 02:41 PM	#3
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 678	Hi Lee, I don't know if I can add all that much to Berkley's meticulous detective work, but here it goes, though it would be nice if we could have a full pic of the blade. 1. It looks like a `puñal' 2. the brand `...GEN' suggests SOLINGEN, There were a number of Creole blades ending in SOLINGEN, though I looked through Dagas de Plata but couldn't see a brand that resembled it. German blades were and are still highly valued in Sth America. 3. The style of the silver-work does look like dating back to the 1860s and does not look like a high end ornamental dress accessory, rather a knife that was used, but probably belonging to someone reasonably well paid. 4. The script of `NAPOLEON III'is a bit of a teaser. Napoleon III's excursion into Mexico overlapped with the US civil war, and unfolded during the years 1862-67. I don't know how the region reacted to it, Perhaps Gonzalo could add something as he is an expert on Mexican affairs. 5. Lee's suggetion of linking this piece with Orelie is a fascinating idea because he was around at about the same time and he was french. 6. The other great regional upheaval around that time was the war of the triple alliance against Paraguay by Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil in 1864-70 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Triple_Alliance. There was not so indirect British intervention, but am not aware of any involvement by France. 7. If we can't clear this mystery, this is one instance where I would be tempted to drop a line to Abel Domenech. Cheers Chris

29th July 2008, 12:17 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I do not have much to add, also. Yes, it looks like a slender puñal criollo. In those times the most expensive part of a silver mount was the handworking of silver, or silversmithing, as silver itself was not much expensive and Argentina was a producer of this metal (the name of this country comes from the latin word "argentum", or silver, so it means "silvery"). Seeing the work on this knife, it doest looks expensive, although it´s historic value is important. So, it could be carried by a soldier or other person involved in military matters, related to the wars and other civil conflicts which Argentina, as many of the old colonies in the world, had in the 19th Century. Berkeley´s pointings are very valuable. The ornamentation is very "militant". Argentina´s attitude toward napoleonic dynasty is interesting. Napoleón I was seen as the bearer of the ideas of liberty, of a new world free of the monarchy and it´s oppression over the colonies, and as the ally against the common enemy: Spain. Most of the civil codes of America´s countries are molded over the napoleonic civil code, and the same apply over the justice system as a whole, which is also the indirect legacy of the roman right. Also, it must be taken on account that the Geat Britain had many military interventions against argentineans with colonial purposes, interventions that argentineans frustrated with the use of war. And the napoleonic dynasty was a traditional enemy of the Great Britain. It must be pointed, also, that a group of argentinean "corsairs" gave some steps to free Napoleón I from it´s confinement in british hands, but that proyect never went too far. British supremacy on the sea could not be ignored. Though the Great Britain and France tried to breake an argentinean blockade over Paraguay, an intent frustrated by argentineans in the Battle of Obligado, it happened in 1945, before the coup of Luis Napoleon Bonaparte, latter Napoleon III, to size the power in France. Even as Napoleon III made a military alliance with the Great Britain since the Crimean War, I don´t think he never attempted any intervention,or collaborated in any intervention, agains Argentina. So, that is the situation of the napoleonic dynasty in front of argentinean eyes, as far I can see. I don´t think the French Intervention in México, ordered by Napoleon III, has any consecuence on this situation, as Argentina and México are almost as as far as Mexico from Europe, and had no political close relations or military alliances. Maybe the reference to Napoleon III on the knife allows to locate it between 1850-1870, but there would be other opinions. My best regards Gonzalo

5th August 2008, 03:25 PM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	There is a possibility, but I think the figure represents what the owner of the knife wanted. I don´t think the election of the figure would be decided by the silversmith. This hilt is customized to the taste of someone, it do not comes from the usual stock. Chris, I have seen many quaddaras, kindjals or qamas with the same somewhat squared hilts, or frankly squared, and more or less terse surfaces. It is not so uncommon. Sometimes the criollos have exagonal hilts, to perform a better grip. My best regards

6th August 2008, 05:20 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, The tail swallowing snake is probably a representation of the 'Ouroboros'. Just a thought as the symbolism is pertinent to many different cultures. Regards, Norman.