Schiavona pommel

[urbanspaceman]

I came across this image and thought I would post it in relation to the eternal question: "is the hole in the pommel meant to attach to the hook on the guard" despite many examples having no hole. Well, this should put a full-stop to that exercise. Of course we now need to know what it was for: a sword knot perhaps?
Also, note the leather wrap around the upper ricasso.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I came across this image and thought I would post it in relation to the eternal question: "is the hole in the pommel meant to attach to the hook on the guard" despite many examples having no hole. Well, this should put a full-stop to that exercise. Of course we now need to know what it was for: a sword knot perhaps?
Also, note the leather wrap around the upper ricasso.
Attachment 245457

This is a great question!! and always exciting to see there are still those of us who ask these things! It seems too many collectors dont think these things worth noticing

The schiavona history is far much more complex and evolutionary than typically realized, and that it was not just used in Venice. This type of hilt with variation of complexity in the trellis style basket guard evolved in the early 17th century.

The example shown from the Ferguson clan of Scotland has a blade dated 1611, clearly a heirloom blade outside the typical period of the hilt. Note the ring, which is to attach the trellis guard to the pommel. The curl at the terminal of the basket near the pommel is a design feature primarily and havent seen one used to hold a ring, interesting idea though.

The connecting ring was not a consistent feature as far as I know, but the idea that it may have become a vestigial thing is interesting.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I came across this image and thought I would post it in relation to the eternal question: "is the hole in the pommel meant to attach to the hook on the guard" despite many examples having no hole. Well, this should put a full-stop to that exercise. Of course we now need to know what it was for: a sword knot perhaps?
Also, note the leather wrap around the upper ricasso.
Attachment 245457

The hole in the pommel is indeed intended to attach the guard hook , not all pommels have this hole.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[urbanspaceman]

It was a fairly common weapon amongst the Border Reivers. In the 15/1600s they were often employed as mercenaries overseas (in Europe) and that is precisely where and when the schiavona shows up.
The thing about the Reivers is that they were outlaws in this country (and in Scotland) and were forced to use whatever they could find that proved suitable; schiavonas must have been great prizes. Jim, that blade is extra special: can you provide a bit more detail please?
Our own Cathey - of HAS - researched and compiled what is almost certainly the definitive work on the schiavona; I recommend it for everyone.
Back to the reason I posted my image:
up till now I have seen a pommel with a hole, and without. When there is a hole it is in the top left corner and sometimes the guard is attached, sometimes not.
What I am seeing here is a hole where no guard fixing could ever occur, so what is it doing there? Is it purely an oddity, or does it indicate that the purpose was other than a fixing to the basket which would explain why it often wasn't.

[urbanspaceman]

In regard to the leather wrap: it allows fingers to wrap comfortably around the upper ricasso (no thumb ring), but it may well have been a rain-guard that has been foreshortened.
Any suggestions?

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

It was a fairly common weapon amongst the Border Reivers. In the 15/1600s they were often employed as mercenaries overseas (in Europe) and that is precisely where and when the schiavona shows up.
The thing about the Reivers is that they were outlaws in this country (and in Scotland) and were forced to use whatever they could find that proved suitable; schiavonas must have been great prizes. Jim, that blade is extra special: can you provide a bit more detail please?
Our own Cathey - of HAS - researched and compiled what is almost certainly the definitive work on the schiavona; I recommend it for everyone.
Back to the reason I posted my image:
up till now I have seen a pommel with a hole, and without. When there is a hole it is in the top left corner and sometimes the guard is attached, sometimes not.
What I am seeing here is a hole where no guard fixing could ever occur, so what is it doing there? Is it purely an oddity, or does it indicate that the purpose was other than a fixing to the basket which would explain why it often wasn't.

in this case it probably means the pommel has been replaced at some point in time

[urbanspaceman]

The hilt I am referring to is image 245457 in post #1

[werecow]

The description also notes that the guard is somewhat loose. Multiple anomalies... I wonder if there's shenanigans. The provenance seems OK though.

Originally Posted by ulfberth

in this case it probably means the pommel has been replaced at some point in time

But presumably the hole was used for something... Isn't it in the wrong place for the ring attaching it to the guard?

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

It was a fairly common weapon amongst the Border Reivers. In the 15/1600s they were often employed as mercenaries overseas (in Europe) and that is precisely where and when the schiavona shows up.
The thing about the Reivers is that they were outlaws in this country (and in Scotland) and were forced to use whatever they could find that proved suitable; schiavonas must have been great prizes. Jim, that blade is extra special: can you provide a bit more detail please?
Our own Cathey - of HAS - researched and compiled what is almost certainly the definitive work on the schiavona; I recommend it for everyone.
Back to the reason I posted my image:
up till now I have seen a pommel with a hole, and without. When there is a hole it is in the top left corner and sometimes the guard is attached, sometimes not.
What I am seeing here is a hole where no guard fixing could ever occur, so what is it doing there? Is it purely an oddity, or does it indicate that the purpose was other than a fixing to the basket which would explain why it often wasn't.

It is because its composite, the pommel is turned around and belonged to another schiavona. Now it may well be that this pommel was changed during working life or later.
The wide leather over the ricasso these are rain gaurds, the schiavona was not meanth to be used in a pistol pointing finger forward grip like the rapier.
If you have handled several schiavones and tried this grip you will understand what i mean, its obvious.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

But the ring usually attaches to the top corner of the pommel, not the bottom corner, right?

[werecow]

Perhaps this is of interest: Found this very similar example here. With an almost identical pommel, similar guard, and another blade with a waisted ricasso.

Schiavon from the funds of the Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore.

[dralin23]

The handles on Shaivona swords are indeed quite varied. Some have a hole in the end of the handle, which is connected to the handle basket by a hook, which gives it additional stability. However, most of the handles I've seen on these swords don't have this hook, even though the curved end on the basket handle is present on almost all swords.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Dralin for posting these examples, which really illustrate the broad scope of the schiavona hilt form, far beyond the confines of Venice as long generally held.

The first example with the unusual helmeted figure, any ideas on what this might represent?
The basket character on these hilts of course follows the basic trellis pattern, but with often subtle variations that have enabled some degree of classification. But the pommels are another story!

Also, on the last example, with the thumb ring, does this suggest European origin? Germany, Austria? The flammard blade is also unusual!

[dralin23]

hello jim,
Thank you for your response to my post. I'll try to give you or anyone else interested some more information about the two Shiavonas.
The first Shiavona is certainly something special, as I've rarely seen it in this form. I think it was made for an officer, and the hilt end was also custom-made.
The blade probably comes from an Austrian saber, although the dating suggests that the blade is probably older than the hilt. According to the well-known overview of hilt shapes for Shiavona swords, this sword is around the eighth pattern, which is dated 1780-1797...
But all in all, it is certainly an exceptional sword, and it would certainly be interesting to learn something about its original owner and his history.

The second sword is also unusual because it has a flamed blade, as you've already noticed.
The blade is signed on one side with "Francisco" and on the other side with "En Toledo."
It was supposed to imitate a Spanish blade made by Francisco in Toledo. However, the engraved running wolves, which are engraved opposite to the direction of the writing, suggest something else. To me, they indicate that it is a Solingen blade made in the mid-17th century.
It is certainly unusual in this composition, as such a flamed blade would not have had particularly good properties for a sword thrust.
I hope I have contributed a little to the discussion. If anyone has further information about this, I would be very grateful.

[urbanspaceman]

That wolf looks like a Munsten family marking. They were in Hounslow and marked their blades with that wolf so everybody assumed they were Solingen imports, but they not have been as often they also had their name on too.
I'm not suggesting this was a Hounslow made blade however, just the provenance of that particular wolf.
Feel free to contradict me, I am always grateful.

[dralin23]

Hello
As far as I know, the Munsten family was also active in Solingen. I don't know the history of this family exactly, so I can't start a discussion about it.
As far as I know, however, the craftsmen of Shortley Bridge chose a running fox as their mark, which was very different from the running wolf.
If you look at the wolf on the Shiavona blade and compare it with the overview of the Passau wolves, you can clearly see that the blade's mark is similar in shape and style to the mark on the page that deals with the history of the Passau wolf. It's the last 3, and it suggests that the blade could date from the 16th-17th century.
The Solingen blacksmiths, just like the English blacksmiths, probably liked to falsify their names or marks to pretend they came from a specific workshop, for example, "Toledo."
The most famous and longest-lived bladesmith is probably Andrea Ferrera!
He forged many thousands of swords and even changed the spelling of his name from time to time...
I think this flamed blade was made by a good blacksmith from Solingen and that he signed it with the pseudonym "Francesco."

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by dralin23

The second sword is also unusual because it has a flamed blade, as you've already noticed......It is certainly unusual in this composition, as such a flamed blade would not have had particularly good properties for a sword thrust.
I hope I have contributed a little to the discussion..

It looks like a heavy thrusting blade compared to a rapier. I think of it less as a flamed blade and closer to a serrated blade. Against an unarmored opponent or a person in quilted armor, the serrations would have been very nasty as draw or push cuts in a bind. Taking away a faster blades mobility and using this blade's weight to move the other blade would have been advantageous. Not a chopping motion or the type of draw cut that a tulwar uses, more like carving a turkey. I think Keith's Shotley Bridge cutting edge colichemardes may have used this technique as well (I would love to have the chance to feel one of these and will definitely be on the lookout for one). Also grabbing this blade to control it would have been a bad idea. Then there is the heavy pommel and basket guard for striking. It would be a long blade that was dangerous if you closed the distance. Just theories....