SPANDAU BALLET

Jim McDougall · 2nd February 2025, 07:03 AM

Years ago in Nashville, I became intrigued by WWI aviation fighters, and was studying the Lafayette Escadrille, which was a volunteer squadron flying for France, and of course the famed Red Baron of Germany.

I met an elderly man who was also interested in this topic, and who said he actually had some 'Spandau' machine guns (LMG '08) . I went to visit him, and was a bit surprised at the huge steel door that secured a room, and he took me in. I was STUNNED!!! not a 'couple' of these familiar guns we have seen on the German WWI fighter planes in books and films....but a huge wall of them...as well as allied Vickers and Lewis guns!

The last I ever heard of this, he was trying to find a home for them, and incredibly US museums were reluctant, and I think they went to the Netherlands. I have never forgotten this overwhelming experience, and wanted to share with anyone out there interested in WWI aviation and weaponry.

I playfully titled the photos I took, "Spandau Ballet" for the pop music group.
The history of the Red Baron became iconic in WWI aviation, and into pop culture in the famed Charlie Brown comics and Snoopy!

The insignia of the Lafayette Escadrille was an American Indian chief on their Nieuport 17 airplanes. This is believed to have been taken from the logo on ammunition boxes from Savage Arms Co. in New York.

kahnjar1 · 2nd February 2025, 08:49 PM

What an amazing collection!!
Here is a link with info about the Lafayette Escadrille https://www.worldwar1centennial.org/...scadrille.html
Stu

Jim McDougall · 2nd February 2025, 10:31 PM

Thank you so much Stu!! Wonderful link!!!
I wasnt sure about this topic as its pretty far out in left field for our usual arms related studies, but seemed worth giving it a go. You have always been key in remembering men lost in the wars, and these guys were dauntless.

kahnjar1 · 3rd February 2025, 12:46 AM

Definately on topic! Those are guns and I guess they could well be called both antique and Ethnic since they originated in Germany. Some pics from a local airshow which probably are not out of place with the topic!

Jim McDougall · 3rd February 2025, 12:59 AM

Breathtaking photos Stu!!
The picture of the Fokker D VII brought to mind the tiny 1/72 scale air force I made (out for surgery a month) back then. I painted these rather than using decals and researched each pilots plane to be sure of them from pictures. The DVII you can see among them, the camoflage was maddening! took me over a week! I did use the rounds and crosses though/

kahnjar1 · 3rd February 2025, 03:23 AM

Great models Jim. I used to make these as a kid, but then there were not so many types available as there are now. Perhaps I should start again though I don't have much room to display them now.
Stu

David · 4th February 2025, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Definately on topic! Those are guns and I guess they could well be called both antique and Ethnic since they originated in Germany. Some pics from a local airshow which probably are not out of place with the topic!

Well, just because these guns were made in Germany i would hardly call them "Ethnographic". They are factory manufactured machine guns.
Thanks for the all the images of those magnificient flying machines. Also not "ethnographic", but still amazing aircraft and i have had a special interest in WWI airplanes since childhood.

kronckew · 4th February 2025, 06:11 PM

"The last I ever heard of this, he was trying to find a home for them, and incredibly US museums were reluctant"

the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has made up its own laws infringing US Citizens abilities to own automatic weapons.

Aside from the outrageous prices those Spandaus would sell for, if ATF let him sell them at their market value, there is a $500 per item 'transfer tax' that ATF imposes on the recipient, even if they are given away. I imagine any museum would be reluctant to go thru all the paperwork involved. Hopefully the new post-election brooms will sweep clean there, and their Constitutional 'infringement' will be modified.

Currently, If you sell firearm for more than you paid for it, ATF will likely arrest and prosecute you for acting as a 'dealer' without the proper ATF licences, which is a felony, resulting in loss of ALL your firearms and terminating your ability to obtain more permanently (felons cannot own firearms) as well as fines and serious jail time. The ATF also can arbitrarily remove your licence if you have one, at their whim.

Ukraine is currently taking WW1 and earlier water cooled Spandaus/Maxims and using them in their front lines. Air cooled machine guns have limited barrel life due to heat buildup, requiring barrel replacement after just a couple hundred rounds, not a problem with water cooled WW1 style weapons which are favoured against Russian WW1 mass attack tactics. I am not sure if the air cooled ones in WW1 aircraft were sufficiently cooled by the aircraft motion & propeller wind.

In any case they are not 'ethnic', and are indeed 'European' and hence do not belong in that forum. As they (Maxims) were designed and used pre-1900, and well before WW1, in the USA and Europe, they should be discussed there, if at all.

2nd February 2025, 07:03 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,062	SPANDAU BALLET Years ago in Nashville, I became intrigued by WWI aviation fighters, and was studying the Lafayette Escadrille, which was a volunteer squadron flying for France, and of course the famed Red Baron of Germany. I met an elderly man who was also interested in this topic, and who said he actually had some 'Spandau' machine guns (LMG '08) . I went to visit him, and was a bit surprised at the huge steel door that secured a room, and he took me in. I was STUNNED!!! not a 'couple' of these familiar guns we have seen on the German WWI fighter planes in books and films....but a huge wall of them...as well as allied Vickers and Lewis guns! The last I ever heard of this, he was trying to find a home for them, and incredibly US museums were reluctant, and I think they went to the Netherlands. I have never forgotten this overwhelming experience, and wanted to share with anyone out there interested in WWI aviation and weaponry. I playfully titled the photos I took, "Spandau Ballet" for the pop music group. The history of the Red Baron became iconic in WWI aviation, and into pop culture in the famed Charlie Brown comics and Snoopy! The insignia of the Lafayette Escadrille was an American Indian chief on their Nieuport 17 airplanes. This is believed to have been taken from the logo on ammunition boxes from Savage Arms Co. in New York. Attached Images

3rd February 2025, 12:46 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,771	Definately on topic! Those are guns and I guess they could well be called both antique and Ethnic since they originated in Germany. Some pics from a local airshow which probably are not out of place with the topic! Attached Images

3rd February 2025, 12:59 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,062	Breathtaking photos Stu!! The picture of the Fokker D VII brought to mind the tiny 1/72 scale air force I made (out for surgery a month) back then. I painted these rather than using decals and researched each pilots plane to be sure of them from pictures. The DVII you can see among them, the camoflage was maddening! took me over a week! I did use the rounds and crosses though/ Attached Images

2nd February 2025, 08:49 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,771	What an amazing collection!! Here is a link with info about the Lafayette Escadrille https://www.worldwar1centennial.org/...scadrille.html Stu

2nd February 2025, 10:31 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,062	Thank you so much Stu!! Wonderful link!!! I wasnt sure about this topic as its pretty far out in left field for our usual arms related studies, but seemed worth giving it a go. You have always been key in remembering men lost in the wars, and these guys were dauntless.

3rd February 2025, 03:23 AM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,771	Great models Jim. I used to make these as a kid, but then there were not so many types available as there are now. Perhaps I should start again though I don't have much room to display them now. Stu

4th February 2025, 06:11 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,204	"The last I ever heard of this, he was trying to find a home for them, and incredibly US museums were reluctant" the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has made up its own laws infringing US Citizens abilities to own automatic weapons. Aside from the outrageous prices those Spandaus would sell for, if ATF let him sell them at their market value, there is a $500 per item 'transfer tax' that ATF imposes on the recipient, even if they are given away. I imagine any museum would be reluctant to go thru all the paperwork involved. Hopefully the new post-election brooms will sweep clean there, and their Constitutional 'infringement' will be modified. Currently, If you sell firearm for more than you paid for it, ATF will likely arrest and prosecute you for acting as a 'dealer' without the proper ATF licences, which is a felony, resulting in loss of ALL your firearms and terminating your ability to obtain more permanently (felons cannot own firearms) as well as fines and serious jail time. The ATF also can arbitrarily remove your licence if you have one, at their whim. Ukraine is currently taking WW1 and earlier water cooled Spandaus/Maxims and using them in their front lines. Air cooled machine guns have limited barrel life due to heat buildup, requiring barrel replacement after just a couple hundred rounds, not a problem with water cooled WW1 style weapons which are favoured against Russian WW1 mass attack tactics. I am not sure if the air cooled ones in WW1 aircraft were sufficiently cooled by the aircraft motion & propeller wind. In any case they are not 'ethnic', and are indeed 'European' and hence do not belong in that forum. As they (Maxims) were designed and used pre-1900, and well before WW1, in the USA and Europe, they should be discussed there, if at all.