Another Most Unusual Pedang With Possible Turkish or Indian Influence

CharlesS · 2nd April 2017, 04:41 PM

As many of you know, I am fascinated by blades from the Islamic world that are clearly from one place, but show influences of other areas via trade, seafarers, etc. I have come to call these "cross cultural" pieces.

This one is an excellent example. Clearly it is Indonesian in design and manufacture. The pamor steel, the ornately carved horn hilt, and even the size suggest such an origin. However, if we look more carefully at it, there are a couple of features that do not seem Indonesian at all.

Note the chiseled forte in a floral motif. The shape of the chiseled area at the forte is very similar to the shape of the bolsters on many Ottoman yataghans. The chiseling then extends further down the spine of the blade, as if to presume a reinforced spine, though actually just chiseled from the same blade. This is a feature very common to the spines on some larger Indian swords. On Indian swords these reinforcements down the spine are normally a separate piece, but they can be chiseled on the blade as a faux reinforced edge as well.

On this Indonesian sword we can only guess at the intent, but for those of you familiar with Ottoman yats and Indian swords with reinforced spines, you will certainly understand what I am getting at.

Dimensions:
Overall length: 26.5in.
Blade length: 21.25in.
Blade's widest point: 1.25in.

ariel · 2nd April 2017, 09:33 PM

One can go even deeper: the "tunkou" like area can be traced all the way to Ottoman and Iranian Seljuks or Indian Moghuls and from them even deeper, to the East Asian nomads.

mariusgmioc · 2nd April 2017, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

The shape of the chiseled area at the forte is very similar to the shape of the bolsters on many Ottoman yataghans.

Maybe yes, maybe not.

The shape of the chiseled area at the forte is very similar to the shape chiseled on many Persian knives (just have a look at some photos from Oriental Arms website).

I find that even the floral motives are quite similar to the ones on Persian blades.

However, whether Persian or Ottoman, I think you make a very interesting and valid point.

PS: The spine really looks like the reinforced spine of an Indian Khanda.

CharlesS · 2nd April 2017, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The shape of the chiseled area at the forte is very similar to the shape chiseled on many Persian knives (just have a look at some photos from Oriental Arms website).

You are absolutely correct Mariusgmioc! I really should have been more inclusive in my observation.

Thanks for the input!

Battara · 3rd April 2017, 02:03 AM

Great example!

What is also a little different is the intense piercing of the horn pommel as well as the blade tip - again a variation from the common Indonesian examples.

The other things are obvious.

Philip · 6th April 2017, 05:12 AM

The extensive piercing utilized in the pommel area is also interesting because the motifs are right out of the rococo patternbooks of 18th cent. European artisans. Objects made in the rococo style were of course extensively used and traded by the Dutch. Not only that, rococo became wildly popular in the decorative arts of Turkey as a result of Ottoman enthusiasm for certain aspects of Western culture, especially during the so-called Tulip Age (Lale Devri), which coincided with the final decade or so of Sultan Ahmed III's reign (1703-30). Rococo motifs are commonly seen on the silver scabbards of many Ottoman yats and kilices, and in fact they remained in vogue in Turkey long after becoming passé in the West.

The outreach to the West for cultural inspiration by the Ottomans during a period which is regarded by many historians as one of decline helps to counter the notion that myopia and xenophobia were/are the iconic hallmarks of fading Middle Eastern states. The pleasure-loving Ahmed was nonetheless open-minded enough to allow a printing press, several public libraries, and a modern fire department in Istanbul, most of which were set up by Europeans. An ambassador was sent to Paris to study French innovations that would strengthen Ottoman rule. So this helps explain why the décor on so many of those Otto scabbards has such a "French" flavor. And why Paris workshops like those of Manceaux found a ready market in the Levant for presentation-grade bichaqs and yataghans decorated in rococo style.

2nd April 2017, 04:41 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Another Most Unusual Pedang With Possible Turkish or Indian Influence As many of you know, I am fascinated by blades from the Islamic world that are clearly from one place, but show influences of other areas via trade, seafarers, etc. I have come to call these "cross cultural" pieces. This one is an excellent example. Clearly it is Indonesian in design and manufacture. The pamor steel, the ornately carved horn hilt, and even the size suggest such an origin. However, if we look more carefully at it, there are a couple of features that do not seem Indonesian at all. Note the chiseled forte in a floral motif. The shape of the chiseled area at the forte is very similar to the shape of the bolsters on many Ottoman yataghans. The chiseling then extends further down the spine of the blade, as if to presume a reinforced spine, though actually just chiseled from the same blade. This is a feature very common to the spines on some larger Indian swords. On Indian swords these reinforcements down the spine are normally a separate piece, but they can be chiseled on the blade as a faux reinforced edge as well. On this Indonesian sword we can only guess at the intent, but for those of you familiar with Ottoman yats and Indian swords with reinforced spines, you will certainly understand what I am getting at. Dimensions: Overall length: 26.5in. Blade length: 21.25in. Blade's widest point: 1.25in. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 2nd April 2017 at 07:52 PM.

2nd April 2017, 09:33 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	One can go even deeper: the "tunkou" like area can be traced all the way to Ottoman and Iranian Seljuks or Indian Moghuls and from them even deeper, to the East Asian nomads.

3rd April 2017, 02:03 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Great example! What is also a little different is the intense piercing of the horn pommel as well as the blade tip - again a variation from the common Indonesian examples. The other things are obvious.

6th April 2017, 05:12 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	The extensive piercing utilized in the pommel area is also interesting because the motifs are right out of the rococo patternbooks of 18th cent. European artisans. Objects made in the rococo style were of course extensively used and traded by the Dutch. Not only that, rococo became wildly popular in the decorative arts of Turkey as a result of Ottoman enthusiasm for certain aspects of Western culture, especially during the so-called Tulip Age (Lale Devri), which coincided with the final decade or so of Sultan Ahmed III's reign (1703-30). Rococo motifs are commonly seen on the silver scabbards of many Ottoman yats and kilices, and in fact they remained in vogue in Turkey long after becoming passé in the West. The outreach to the West for cultural inspiration by the Ottomans during a period which is regarded by many historians as one of decline helps to counter the notion that myopia and xenophobia were/are the iconic hallmarks of fading Middle Eastern states. The pleasure-loving Ahmed was nonetheless open-minded enough to allow a printing press, several public libraries, and a modern fire department in Istanbul, most of which were set up by Europeans. An ambassador was sent to Paris to study French innovations that would strengthen Ottoman rule. So this helps explain why the décor on so many of those Otto scabbards has such a "French" flavor. And why Paris workshops like those of Manceaux found a ready market in the Levant for presentation-grade bichaqs and yataghans decorated in rococo style.