19thc Syrian Saif with European blade

harrywagner · 5th March 2016, 06:19 PM

It has been an interesting week for me as a collector. I was fortunate enough to find this "must have" item that appears complete and was within my budget. I think it looks like the sword in figure 2.6, page 12, of Dr. Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia...". I am hoping it is a 19thc Syrian Saif with a European blade. The scabbard is well-worn leather over wood. The mounts are blackened steel decorated with silver koftgari in the form of geometric patterns and two (as yet untranslated) Arabic quotes. The cross guard is decorated with gold koftgari (at least I think it is gold), much of which has worn off over time.The blade has a single wide fuller that runs from the forte to approximately two thirds the length of the blade on both sides. It has some condition issues but nothing I can't fix or live with. Here are the dimensions:

LOA: 36" LOB 30.5"

I am hoping that someone here can confirm that this is what I think it is. I am often wrong and have bee fooled many times. TIA!

Harry

Jim McDougall · 5th March 2016, 06:54 PM

I gotta say Harry, I love being along on this great ride of yours!!!
This one is indeed a Syrian sa'if, and the blade is from a British M1796 light cavalry sabre.
These were around in huge volume throughout the 19th century, long after being superceded by the M1821 patterns of sabres for troopers. These in surplus seem to have entered every imaginable entrepot as surplus or trade items. While the British were of course quite present in Arabia (notably Aden) that these blades entered trade markets seems well established.
There should be a makers stamp (or remains of one) on blade back near forte.

harrywagner · 5th March 2016, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I gotta say Harry, I love being along on this great ride of yours!!!
This one is indeed a Syrian sa'if, and the blade is from a British M1796 light cavalry sabre.
These were around in huge volume throughout the 19th century, long after being superceded by the M1821 patterns of sabres for troopers. These in surplus seem to have entered every imaginable entrepot as surplus or trade items. While the British were of course quite present in Arabia (notably Aden) that these blades entered trade markets seems well established.
There should be a makers stamp (or remains of one) on blade back near forte.

Thanks Jim. That is a relief. I did not think it was a fake, but am very relieved to have a more experienced collector confirm that. I can't find any marks on the blade, but it is possible there is one under the guard. One of those tiny mirrors dentists use would sure come in handy.

It really has been an adventure. I think it has been less than two years since I bought my first vintage or antique piece. I have 40 years of missed collecting to catchup on so I have been buying at an accelerated rate. It has been a little humiliating but mostly fun. I am totally hooked. Who knew collecting would be so addictive!

Harry

Kubur · 5th March 2016, 07:33 PM

Congratulations Harry it's a super good catch and all good!
If i was you i'll remove the modern rivets in the guard.
Expect the pommel missing, it's a very complete and original Syrian sword.
I've never seen British blade on this kind of sword,maybe Jim can show us some models or more information to support his proposal.
Kubur

harrywagner · 5th March 2016, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Congratulations Harry it's a super good catch and all good!
If i was you i'll remove the modern rivets in the guard.
Expect the pommel missing, it's a very complete and original Syrian sword.
I've never seen British blade on this kind of sword,maybe Jim can show us some models or more information to support his proposal.
Kubur

Thanks Kubur! Any chance you can translate the Arabic at the scabbard throat? I think there is another quote at the chape, but it does not show up very well in the photos. Thanks again. I appreciate your help!

Jim McDougall · 5th March 2016, 09:17 PM

The collecting is indeed a passion Harry! and I enjoyed it for many decades but for me personally, learning from the weapons has been my greatest joy.
That is why I write here, because I get to vicariously enjoy the great items you guys find, and try to share what I have learned on one hand, but at the same time learn with you.........we never stop being students

I should have added an image of the sword form I was suggesting and appreciate being reminded to do so.

Attached is the well known British M1796 light cavalry sabre, and in the other image alongside the sabres we once regarded as 'Berber'. These so called Berber sabres seem to have been nearly invariably mounted with these British sabre blades, but as seen here, the usual hatchet point was dramatically reprofiled in an almost 'kampilan' type point.

While these are of course in no way connected here, the idea was to show the wide distribution of these blades. They remained profoundly used in India, where they were often found in tulwars, in fact often to the dismay of British cavalry such as during the Sikh Wars.

This blade may have ended up out of India in this situation or any number of circumstances. The modern rivets are not of particular concern in the Syrian type hilt (Robert Elgoods book you have there is fantastic, and great perspective on the British presence in Arabia I mentioned)....as these blades were quite often recycled as swords were remounted constantly through generations.
It would not be hard to imagine this sabre having been at a Bedouins side in the constant use in the early 20th century as these sabres remained often key weapons in intertribal raiding that was inherent in those days.

Kubur · 5th March 2016, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Attached is the well known British M1796 light cavalry sabre, and in the other image alongside the sabres we once regarded as 'Berber'. These so called Berber sabres seem to have been nearly invariably mounted with these British sabre blades, but as seen here, the usual hatchet point was dramatically

Ok British influence makes sense with the so-called berber swords as we have also a lot of koummia blades from "London" or copies.
For Syrian sword, I'm not convinced at all, most of Syrian blades are styrians, Eastern European and of course Persian. Lot of Arabian swords have German blades and I think Harry that you have a German blade.
And i'm not a specialist at all like Jim but i think one of the sword pictured above is Prussian?
Best,
Kubur

5th March 2016, 06:19 PM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	19thc Syrian Saif with European blade It has been an interesting week for me as a collector. I was fortunate enough to find this "must have" item that appears complete and was within my budget. I think it looks like the sword in figure 2.6, page 12, of Dr. Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia...". I am hoping it is a 19thc Syrian Saif with a European blade. The scabbard is well-worn leather over wood. The mounts are blackened steel decorated with silver koftgari in the form of geometric patterns and two (as yet untranslated) Arabic quotes. The cross guard is decorated with gold koftgari (at least I think it is gold), much of which has worn off over time.The blade has a single wide fuller that runs from the forte to approximately two thirds the length of the blade on both sides. It has some condition issues but nothing I can't fix or live with. Here are the dimensions: LOA: 36" LOB 30.5" I am hoping that someone here can confirm that this is what I think it is. I am often wrong and have bee fooled many times. TIA! Harry Attached Images

5th March 2016, 09:17 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,868	The collecting is indeed a passion Harry! and I enjoyed it for many decades but for me personally, learning from the weapons has been my greatest joy. That is why I write here, because I get to vicariously enjoy the great items you guys find, and try to share what I have learned on one hand, but at the same time learn with you.........we never stop being students I should have added an image of the sword form I was suggesting and appreciate being reminded to do so. Attached is the well known British M1796 light cavalry sabre, and in the other image alongside the sabres we once regarded as 'Berber'. These so called Berber sabres seem to have been nearly invariably mounted with these British sabre blades, but as seen here, the usual hatchet point was dramatically reprofiled in an almost 'kampilan' type point. While these are of course in no way connected here, the idea was to show the wide distribution of these blades. They remained profoundly used in India, where they were often found in tulwars, in fact often to the dismay of British cavalry such as during the Sikh Wars. This blade may have ended up out of India in this situation or any number of circumstances. The modern rivets are not of particular concern in the Syrian type hilt (Robert Elgoods book you have there is fantastic, and great perspective on the British presence in Arabia I mentioned)....as these blades were quite often recycled as swords were remounted constantly through generations. It would not be hard to imagine this sabre having been at a Bedouins side in the constant use in the early 20th century as these sabres remained often key weapons in intertribal raiding that was inherent in those days. Attached Images

5th March 2016, 06:54 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,868	I gotta say Harry, I love being along on this great ride of yours!!! This one is indeed a Syrian sa'if, and the blade is from a British M1796 light cavalry sabre. These were around in huge volume throughout the 19th century, long after being superceded by the M1821 patterns of sabres for troopers. These in surplus seem to have entered every imaginable entrepot as surplus or trade items. While the British were of course quite present in Arabia (notably Aden) that these blades entered trade markets seems well established. There should be a makers stamp (or remains of one) on blade back near forte.

5th March 2016, 07:33 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Congratulations Harry it's a super good catch and all good! If i was you i'll remove the modern rivets in the guard. Expect the pommel missing, it's a very complete and original Syrian sword. I've never seen British blade on this kind of sword,maybe Jim can show us some models or more information to support his proposal. Kubur