Candi Sukuh carving, keris mythology

[Pusaka]

"The scene depicted Bhima as the blacksmith on the left forging the metal, Ganesha in the center, and Arjuna on the right operating the piston bellows to blow air into the furnace. The wall behind the blacksmith displays various items manufactured in the forge, including kris. These representations of the kris in the Candi Sukuh established the fact that by the year 1437 the kris had already gained an important place within Javanese culture."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris

Bhima and Arjuna are characters of the mahabharata and Indonesia has its own version of that epic which is traditionally depicted in the shadow puppet plays.

My question would be is there any scene in Indonesian mahabharata or shadow play that in anyway corresponds to the scene depicted in the Candi Sukuh carving and if so what is the details of the story?

In addition if you have been passed ANY story's (myth etc) about the origins of the keris or the first empu/Pande if you could share those tales that would be great!

[Pusaka]

"According to legend, Empu Ramadi around A.D. 230 made the first kris. Early krises were leaf-shaped and were called pasopati, paso or pisau, meaning knife, and pati, meaning deadly. Antique krises are kept as heirlooms or votive objects, and some are said to possess magic power. "

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/tr...liest-weapons/

I found the above interesting because it is also what I heard, anybody know who Empu Ramadi is. Did some google searches and he is described as the empu of the gods.

[drdavid]

Hi Pusaka
I assume you are familiar with this scholarly piece http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html
drdavid

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by drdavid

Hi Pusaka
I assume you are familiar with this scholarly piece http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html
drdavid

I quickly read it now, was surprised the image I posted above was not in it because the blade nearest the smith in the carving is very keris like.

Also is Arjuna or Bhima mentioned in the Ramayana?

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Also is Arjuna or Bhima mentioned in the Ramayana?

No, but they are major characters in the Mahabharata, including Arjuna also a major character in the Bhagavad-Gita.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Battara

No, but they are major characters in the Mahabharata, including Arjuna also a major character in the Bhagavad-Gita.

If the images at Candi Sukuh depict the ramayan then it cant be Bhima or Ajuna because they are in the mahabharata (part of which is the Bhagavad-Gita)

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

"According to legend, Empu Ramadi around A.D. 230 made the first kris. Early krises were leaf-shaped and were called pasopati, paso or pisau, meaning knife, and pati, meaning deadly. Antique krises are kept as heirlooms or votive objects, and some are said to possess magic power. "

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/tr...liest-weapons/

I found the above interesting because it is also what I heard, anybody know who Empu Ramadi is. Did some google searches and he is described as the empu of the gods.

There is quite a bit of highly questionable information in this article regarding keris. People say a lot of things about keris. Not all of it is correct.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

There is quite a bit of highly questionable information in this article regarding keris. People say a lot of things about keris. Not all of it is correct.

Yeah but mythology or legend is not history, that the smith of gods ramayadi made the first keris is obviously mythology.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Yeah but mythology or legend is not history, that the smith of gods ramayadi made the first keris is obviously mythology.

I was more referring to many other questionable statements that are not being presented as mythology or legend in their section on keris...that curved blades first appeared around 329 AD (i can't say i am aware of any evidence that puts the blade we recognize as a keris this early, yet alone wavy blades, and why such a specific date as 329 anyway). Sarpa lumaku (walking serpent) is also just one of many different forms of the wavy blade, though it seems to be the one that the silat community have latched onto. I am also confused by their assertion that the "the pamor blade-welding technique also began to die out after the Majapahit era" (i would think quite the opposite) and of course they put forth that old legend that the keris traditionally used meteoric ore long before the only recorded discovery of such iron-bearing meteorites in Prambanan in the late 18th century.
Unfortunately it seems to me that in most cases silat schools put forth a rather skewed and limited viewpoint of the keris, falling back on legend and mythology much too much in order to better fit it into their "pantheon of deadly weapons". But culturally the keris is so much more than merely another weapon to be wielded in martial contest. The specifics of its place within Indonesian societies has indeed changed over time with the influx of different influences, but it has always been far more than a just weapon, even a magickal one imbued with a living spirit. It has connective relationship and deep symbolic meaning throughout the grand scheme of the Indonesian cultural identity.
To return to your original question, i am not sure that i personally have enough knowledge of Mahabharata to accurately answer you. However, while they certainly did place their own local flavor on Hinduism in the Mojopahit era i have always assumed that the Mahahharta told a very specific tale from Hindu mythology. So i am not sure that they would have added any scenes into the wayang to depict the forging scene from Candi Sukuh, though there may indeed be a corresponding scene already present in that epic. Of course, wayang has added items that are culturally specific to the area, so you will find keris present even though they obviously did not exist in the original Hindu epic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata

[Pusaka]

Mythology is important because in ancient times they believed that to be real history and even today in Silat schools, even according to the historians of the karaton surakarta the first age of the keris was Empu Ramadi of the Purwacarita kingdom. Official karaton surakata website below

https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...ml&prev=search

So why is this mythology important? well I believe that image I posted above has been incorrectly identified. To know what it depicts you have to know the mythology.

I believe that image is commemorative and was put there by ancient people in that location because according to mythology it was in that place mount Lawu, the Purwacarita kingdom that the divine Empu Hyang Ramadi forged the first keris at the behest of king Maha Dewa Buda, the Hyang Guru.

The carving at Candi Sukuh on mount Lawu was put there by people who believed this mythology to be history, the smith at the left of the image is the divine Empu Ramadi and the elephant headed figure is the Hyang Guru instructing him to make the keris.