German broadsword info requested

Shakethetrees · 9th July 2014, 07:54 AM

Hello all, I am a new member and this is my first thread. (I hope everything works out and loads correctly!)

I've been a collector of American, European, and ethnographic weapons for probably forty five years or more and discovered this forum within the last year. I am looking forward to participation in the future, when time and topic allows.

I turned this saber up about twenty years ago in a rural Louisiana flea market, near what we call the German Coast, which was settled sometime in the second quarter of the 18th century (that's very old for us!).

My best guess is that its a cavalry broadsword, circa 1735-1750 or thereabouts, but, as I do not have any German references, it's just that; a guess. I tried to get an image of the marks, but one of them was only partially struck. The blade is 37.5 inches long, brass hilt with a leather covered wooden grip. Heavy, single strand brass wire wrapping. It does not appear to ever have been dismounted in a very long time.

ulfberth · 10th July 2014, 06:00 PM

Hi there Shaky,

That's a nice sword just the way i like them most, untampered and pure.
Early 18the century and probably german or better prussian.
The engraving will probably refer to regiments numbers.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 15th July 2014, 09:12 PM

This is an interesting example of the general type of hilts found on hangers and cavalry swords (typically associated with 'Walloon type) with bilobate counterguards in the 18th century, usually second quarter to mid. While unable to find an exact match in some of the German and North European references at hand, it follows the general style indeed seen with German forms.
Though the blunt ended quillon suggests those origins, the thumb ring usually present is notably absent. Naturally by this time there was distinct movement away from this feature it seems many, if not most, examples from Germany and Europe in general had them.

One of the best references I know for these kinds of weapons is "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by George Neumann, 1973.
In going through this I found many remarkably similar examples, mostly in the hangers with hilts of the bilobate form. As noted, the bilobate 'walloon' type guard became extremely popular after the Thirty Years War (end 1648) and developed in the Low Countries (hence 'Walloon') . By the mid 18th century they became well known throughout Europe, and by the time of the American Revolution they were profusely represented. Neumann notes (p.76), that at this time, "...more than 30,000 German mercenaries carried a motley array of early and late European arms".

It is also well known that Germany was of course supplier of swords and blades to the British army, these types included. In most cases it seems that the British favored a rather heart shaped bilobate guard, while the Continental types were relatively true dual lobes.

What I found interesting in checking through the examples in Neumann was markings, typically on the underside of the counterguard as seen here.
While it is tempting to think of the FA as Friedrich Augustus II , Elector of Saxony in these times, I think these letters more likely regimentally noted.
On the examples in Neumann there were many combinations, it seems invariably on counterguard underside and most British (a couple of American). Many were referred to as 'common British fraction markings', such as 9/56; 2/48 etc. Others has an RA; No.9: 28 but most telling was one reading 'R No.9' .

******
In looking in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, E. Wagner )Plate 7, p.257 is a Saxony Dragoon sabre end of 18th c. and at the forte is the monogram F.A. surmounted by a crown and No. 104.
This monogram is noted as Frederick August (Elector of Saxony), and the number combination in similar form to this example.
The sword in plate 7 is not the same but the initials and numbers seemed to be pertinent.

I would then reassess my view on this sword as probably a Saxony dragoon sword mid 18th c. and quite likely among the arms brought into America with those German mercenaries previously mentioned.

Shakethetrees · 22nd July 2014, 07:00 AM

Thanks for the information. I have looked in Neumann, found close examples, but the markings and bilobate guard of that heavy weight pushed me from thinking American or British.

The fact that it came from a junk shop near to Des Allemands years ago before a lot of stuff has been moved around from collectors to dealers and back several times is of interest to me, " right out of the woodwork" as they say. I remember thinking at the time I was walking out with it thinking it was one of those big, heavy American Rev War era cavalry broadswords and being at tad disappointed that it didn't match examples in my minimal library of that time.

Somehow fate saved me from trading it off or selling it. I have finally grown attached to it, wisdom and a little bit of sense coming a bit late, but, fortunately, not too late!

9th July 2014, 07:54 AM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	German broadsword info requested Hello all, I am a new member and this is my first thread. (I hope everything works out and loads correctly!) I've been a collector of American, European, and ethnographic weapons for probably forty five years or more and discovered this forum within the last year. I am looking forward to participation in the future, when time and topic allows. I turned this saber up about twenty years ago in a rural Louisiana flea market, near what we call the German Coast, which was settled sometime in the second quarter of the 18th century (that's very old for us!). My best guess is that its a cavalry broadsword, circa 1735-1750 or thereabouts, but, as I do not have any German references, it's just that; a guess. I tried to get an image of the marks, but one of them was only partially struck. The blade is 37.5 inches long, brass hilt with a leather covered wooden grip. Heavy, single strand brass wire wrapping. It does not appear to ever have been dismounted in a very long time. Attached Images

15th July 2014, 09:12 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This is an interesting example of the general type of hilts found on hangers and cavalry swords (typically associated with 'Walloon type) with bilobate counterguards in the 18th century, usually second quarter to mid. While unable to find an exact match in some of the German and North European references at hand, it follows the general style indeed seen with German forms. Though the blunt ended quillon suggests those origins, the thumb ring usually present is notably absent. Naturally by this time there was distinct movement away from this feature it seems many, if not most, examples from Germany and Europe in general had them. One of the best references I know for these kinds of weapons is "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by George Neumann, 1973. In going through this I found many remarkably similar examples, mostly in the hangers with hilts of the bilobate form. As noted, the bilobate 'walloon' type guard became extremely popular after the Thirty Years War (end 1648) and developed in the Low Countries (hence 'Walloon') . By the mid 18th century they became well known throughout Europe, and by the time of the American Revolution they were profusely represented. Neumann notes (p.76), that at this time, "...more than 30,000 German mercenaries carried a motley array of early and late European arms". It is also well known that Germany was of course supplier of swords and blades to the British army, these types included. In most cases it seems that the British favored a rather heart shaped bilobate guard, while the Continental types were relatively true dual lobes. What I found interesting in checking through the examples in Neumann was markings, typically on the underside of the counterguard as seen here. While it is tempting to think of the FA as Friedrich Augustus II , Elector of Saxony in these times, I think these letters more likely regimentally noted. On the examples in Neumann there were many combinations, it seems invariably on counterguard underside and most British (a couple of American). Many were referred to as 'common British fraction markings', such as 9/56; 2/48 etc. Others has an RA; No.9: 28 but most telling was one reading 'R No.9' . ****** In looking in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, E. Wagner )Plate 7, p.257 is a Saxony Dragoon sabre end of 18th c. and at the forte is the monogram F.A. surmounted by a crown and No. 104. This monogram is noted as Frederick August (Elector of Saxony), and the number combination in similar form to this example. The sword in plate 7 is not the same but the initials and numbers seemed to be pertinent. I would then reassess my view on this sword as probably a Saxony dragoon sword mid 18th c. and quite likely among the arms brought into America with those German mercenaries previously mentioned. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th July 2014 at 03:55 AM.

10th July 2014, 06:00 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	Hi there Shaky, That's a nice sword just the way i like them most, untampered and pure. Early 18the century and probably german or better prussian. The engraving will probably refer to regiments numbers. kind regards Ulfberth

22nd July 2014, 07:00 AM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Thanks for the information. I have looked in Neumann, found close examples, but the markings and bilobate guard of that heavy weight pushed me from thinking American or British. The fact that it came from a junk shop near to Des Allemands years ago before a lot of stuff has been moved around from collectors to dealers and back several times is of interest to me, " right out of the woodwork" as they say. I remember thinking at the time I was walking out with it thinking it was one of those big, heavy American Rev War era cavalry broadswords and being at tad disappointed that it didn't match examples in my minimal library of that time. Somehow fate saved me from trading it off or selling it. I have finally grown attached to it, wisdom and a little bit of sense coming a bit late, but, fortunately, not too late!