A pair of Bali (?) keris, 1 of 2

S.Workman · 16th May 2014, 08:38 PM

Here is a keris that I got recently, and which I have talked about in other threads. It's the one that had a rotting fabric wrap on the tang, and which smelled very bad. I have given it a wash with diluted vinegar, which has taken off surface rust mostly, there is still quite a bit of crust on the tang, which suits me if it turns out my finishing strategy was wrong. The fellow that I got it from said that it needed an acid etch. Perhaps he is right, in any event I can't find much pamor if any.
I am looking forward to getting a verdict from more seasoned keris fanatics ob how to proceed. The hulu seems to be wrapped in horsehair, I can't be sure. It doesn't seem to be a vegetable fiber.
Anyway, let me know what you all think. Keris #2 tomorrow….

kai · 17th May 2014, 08:59 AM

Hello S,

Yup, Bali/Lombok again.

Quote:

Perhaps he is right, in any event I can't find much pamor if any.
I am looking forward to getting a verdict from more seasoned keris fanatics ob how to proceed.

Definitely laminated; I think I see some pamor lurking. I'd give it another extensive round of polishing (by hand!) before proceeding to warangan.

Quote:

The hulu seems to be wrapped in horsehair, I can't be sure. It doesn't seem to be a vegetable fiber.

Yes, no fiber. Hair is indeed utilized for this type of braiding.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2014, 09:37 AM

Kai is correct:- this is a laminated blade, and it does have pamor, but this pamor is what we call "pamor sanak".

The word "sanak" means related or relation, so this type of pamor is recognised as being made from related material, not materials that differ. In other words, it is plain iron, the contrast that may appear after it has been stained is frequently caused by weld lines and/or manipulation during forging.

Sometimes a distinct contrast will appear in this type of pamor, and this contrast is caused by the use of high and low phosphorus content irons.

Native irons smelted in Jawa, and possibly also in Bali, seem to have generally been high phosphorus irons, which are quite unsuitable for tool and weapon making, so these high phosphorus irons were combined with expensive imported irons, probably mostly tools from China, in order to extend the quantity of material.

When stained the high phosphorus irons appear to be whitish or greyish in colour, the better quality irons appear darker, so this gives a good contrast. You often see this type of pamor in older Javanese blades.

S.Workman · 17th May 2014, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kai is correct:- this is a laminated blade, and it does have pamor, but this pamor is what we call "pamor sanak".

The word "sanak" means related or relation, so this type of pamor is recognised as being made from related material, not materials that differ. In other words, it is plain iron, the contrast that may appear after it has been stained is frequently caused by weld lines and/or manipulation during forging.

Sometimes a distinct contrast will appear in this type of pamor, and this contrast is caused by the use of high and low phosphorus content irons.

Native irons smelted in Jawa, and possibly also in Bali, seem to have generally been high phosphorus irons, which are quite unsuitable for tool and weapon making, so these high phosphorus irons were combined with expensive imported irons, probably mostly tools from China, in order to extend the quantity of material.

When stained the high phosphorus irons appear to be whitish or greyish in colour, the better quality irons appear darker, so this gives a good contrast. You often see this type of pamor in older Javanese blades.

That is all wonderful information. I am very interested to see what it has to show. Is there any way to tell how dark I should allow it to become?

David · 17th May 2014, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Workman

I have given it a wash with diluted vinegar, which has taken off surface rust mostly, there is still quite a bit of crust on the tang, which suits me if it turns out my finishing strategy was wrong.

I agree with the other assessments here. A proper staining my well show some contrast in the pamor. However, it will be essential that you remove ALL the rust before attempting another staining. Sometimes a keris needs a prolonged soaking in the bath. I have generally used pineapple juice for this, but your vinegar solution should also work fine. You may need to soak it for days though, removing from time to time and brushing with a toothbrush to remove the loosened rust. If stubborn rust remains it can often be removed by picking at it with a needle. But if rust remains on the blade it will not respond well to the warangan.

S.Workman · 17th May 2014, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I agree with the other assessments here. A proper staining my well show some contrast in the pamor. However, it will be essential that you remove ALL the rust before attempting another staining. Sometimes a keris needs a prolonged soaking in the bath. I have generally used pineapple juice for this, but your vinegar solution should also work fine. You may need to soak it for days though, removing from time to time and brushing with a toothbrush to remove the loosened rust. If stubborn rust remains it can often be removed by picking at it with a needle. But if rust remains on the blade it will not respond well to the warangan.

On the question or rust, I have noticed that rust removes easily enough, when picked at or pressed with an awl (I actually push at the flecks and you can hear them crush, then they can be wiped away). Those are red oxides, but there seem to be, at least on the keris I have, black oxides which are extremely resistant, and seem to darken over time but which I can't see in sunlight. Is this stain considered rust in the sense of a hostile oxide?

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2014, 09:21 PM

I think that Japanese sword people call this black coloured corrosion something like "inert rust", or "inactive rust". They do not seem to want to remove it on sword tangs. I truly do not know if it can cause further damage or not, because I have always taken everything back to clean metal, no matter what colour the corrosion is.

I normally use magnification and bright light when I'm cleaning away rust. Direct sunlight is good, but I also use very bright artificial light.

S.Workman · 21st May 2014, 01:56 AM

By the way, although pamor can't yet be defined on this or my other kris, any insight on how to describe the dapur would be much appreciated.

16th May 2014, 08:38 PM	#1
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	A pair of Bali (?) keris, 1 of 2 Here is a keris that I got recently, and which I have talked about in other threads. It's the one that had a rotting fabric wrap on the tang, and which smelled very bad. I have given it a wash with diluted vinegar, which has taken off surface rust mostly, there is still quite a bit of crust on the tang, which suits me if it turns out my finishing strategy was wrong. The fellow that I got it from said that it needed an acid etch. Perhaps he is right, in any event I can't find much pamor if any. I am looking forward to getting a verdict from more seasoned keris fanatics ob how to proceed. The hulu seems to be wrapped in horsehair, I can't be sure. It doesn't seem to be a vegetable fiber. Anyway, let me know what you all think. Keris #2 tomorrow…. Attached Images

17th May 2014, 09:37 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Kai is correct:- this is a laminated blade, and it does have pamor, but this pamor is what we call "pamor sanak". The word "sanak" means related or relation, so this type of pamor is recognised as being made from related material, not materials that differ. In other words, it is plain iron, the contrast that may appear after it has been stained is frequently caused by weld lines and/or manipulation during forging. Sometimes a distinct contrast will appear in this type of pamor, and this contrast is caused by the use of high and low phosphorus content irons. Native irons smelted in Jawa, and possibly also in Bali, seem to have generally been high phosphorus irons, which are quite unsuitable for tool and weapon making, so these high phosphorus irons were combined with expensive imported irons, probably mostly tools from China, in order to extend the quantity of material. When stained the high phosphorus irons appear to be whitish or greyish in colour, the better quality irons appear darker, so this gives a good contrast. You often see this type of pamor in older Javanese blades.

17th May 2014, 09:21 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I think that Japanese sword people call this black coloured corrosion something like "inert rust", or "inactive rust". They do not seem to want to remove it on sword tangs. I truly do not know if it can cause further damage or not, because I have always taken everything back to clean metal, no matter what colour the corrosion is. I normally use magnification and bright light when I'm cleaning away rust. Direct sunlight is good, but I also use very bright artificial light.

21st May 2014, 01:56 AM	#8
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	By the way, although pamor can't yet be defined on this or my other kris, any insight on how to describe the dapur would be much appreciated.