Unknown keris

[KLUNGKLUNG]

Hello,

Picked up this keris. Does anyone have an opinon about this keris? Provenance and dapur? The blade has a single fuller almost up to the tip. Pics from the seller.

[David]

Originally Posted by KLUNGKLUNG

Provenance and dapur?

Klungklung, provenance is generally considered to be the confirmable history of ownership for an object. I am afraid that is not something anyone here would be able to supply unless they once owned this keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I suspect that Klungkung is not a native speaker of English, and that he perhaps may be an Indonesian.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, but if he is Indonesian, he may have turned to Echols and Shadilly for guidance when he was phrasing his post.

Although Echols and Shadilly produced perhaps the most authoritative English/Indonesian dictionary, there are still some words in both languages that do not come into the other language with quite the same meaning and intent as they have in the original language, most especially when that meaning in the original language has both a scholarly and a colloquial usage.

The English word "provenance" is one of these confused words.

E & S give "provenance" as "provenience" for the reference, and "provenience" they give as "asal" and "sumber" in Indonesian.

Asal = "origin"

Sumber = "source"

"provenience" in Miriam-Webster is given as "origin, source"

If we go to Oxford, we learn that "proveniance" is a US variation of "provenance", and Oxford gives the meaning of "provenance" as "place of origin or earliest known history of something"

John Echols was an American, so it is only to be expected that he would base his definitions on Mirriam-Webster, rather than Oxford.

So Klungkung, not being a native speaker of the English language placed his trust in the accuracy of dictionaries, not realising that we as collectors have our own understanding of the word "provenance".

I believe that what Klungkung would like to hear are opinions on where this keris might have originated. Maybe even a little touch of tangguh might make him happy.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I believe that what Klungkung would like to hear are opinions on where this keris might have originated. Maybe even a little touch of tangguh might make him happy.

You are most probably correct here Alan and i am aware that English is not Klungklung's first language. I believe he resides in the Netherlands if i am not mistaken. While Miriam-Webster does indeed give the first definition as "origin, source" collectors of most things are generally more concerned with the second definition, " the history of ownership of a valued object or work of art or literature" as it applies to antiquities. Obviously none of us have been privy to such history.
While i might hazard a guess at origin i believe this might be something of a mix-and-match ensemble. At least the Surakarta hilt seems out of place to me. As to tangguh, i personally would not have a go there and it seems you might be feeling hesitant yourself.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes David, precisely, and this is exactly the problem that can throw a non-native speaker. I have several languages in varying degrees of competence, and I've been tripped up more than once by relying on dictionaries.

As to origin, I have refrained from giving an opinion because I'd like to see more people participating in discussion. In fact, the blade and mendak are pretty obvious, the wrongko and jejeran are subject to relatively strong speculation.

[Sajen]

I would place this interesting keris to East Java, I don't think that it mismatched. The wrongko is clearly East Java and I think the blade also. And a Solo hilt isn't very uncommon by a East Java keris in my opnion. Would like to see how the blade fit inside the scabbard. I personally like this keris.

Regards,
Detlef