Kris question to the knowledgeables

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi all,

While working with a Philippino Smith over the net on a contemporary project for a kris (don't crucify me ) I was told that the sides of the guard have meanings.
This is a detail of my old piece (in the sense of ancient)



and I would appreciate if you gentlemen could enlighten me on the meanings of what I call lattice work in the right and the left side of the flaring of the blade. I'm most curious to learn as I am aware they have meanings.

On the other hand, when the picture is reversed,



It appears to me that the right side has somehow the sape of an elephant? but also of the same type of basic shape a kukhri has.

Your detailed information would certainly teach me more things.

Also, is the origin of the Kris has been established? Indonesia or Philippines? Who influenced who? Is it essentially a Muslim sword?

Thank you all
Will retire for the night now.
Best regards,

Antonio

[MABAGANI]

Not sure if a shot wasn't taken at answering this because a search probably would have gone over the same questions regarding the Moro kris.
Here is a great history site.
http://www.sabrizain.demon.co.uk/malaya/johor.htm

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

Not sure if a shot wasn't taken at answering this because a search probably would have gone over the same questions regarding the Moro kris.
Here is a great history site.
http://www.sabrizain.demon.co.uk/malaya/johor.htm

Very informative site, Mabagani, thanks.

But I'm confused: it doesn't really seem to answer any of Antonio's questions.

[MABAGANI]

As for the origins of the kris or precusor from keris to kris, I've written my opinions on previous threads. I put the link because Mindanao and Sulu royals trace their heritage to this region Johore, Melaka and Sumatra. The history site of Malaysia and Indonesia gives an overview during the 15th and 16th centuries and their connection and cause for migration from the Johore area to Brunei, Mindanao and Sulu. I'd still stand by my statements that the "archaic" kris changed from the keris during the reign of Sultan Kudrat and his father of Mindanao in the early to mid 17th century when the various sultanates unified in their struggle against foreign aggression and a symbolic form of the kris was created to indicate their relation to other Islamic Malay Sultanates. The kris transitions from dagger to sword when the Mindanao and Sulu sultanates continued to remain unconquered, therefore furthering the evolution from keris to kris. This would have been the same period when the major groups the Maranao, Maguindanao and Tausug showed their unification and made their forms of the kris yet kept their stylistic forms found in the trunk section which showed their specific point of origin. This is IMHO, search my threads again for references.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

As for the origins of the kris or precusor from keris to kris, I've written my opinions on previous threads. I put the link because Mindanao and Sulu royals trace their heritage to this region Johore, Melaka and Sumatra. The history site of Malaysia and Indonesia gives an overview during the 15th and 16th centuries and their connection and cause for migration from the Johore area to Brunei, Mindanao and Sulu. I'd still stand by my statements that the "archaic" kris changed from the keris during the reign of Sultan Kudrat and his father of Mindanao in the early to mid 17th century when the various sultanates unified in their struggle against foreign aggression and a symbolic form of the kris was created to indicate their relation to other Islamic Malay Sultanates. The kris transitions from dagger to sword when the Mindanao and Sulu sultanates continued to remain unconquered, therefore furthering the evolution from keris to kris. This would have been the same period when the major groups the Maranao, Maguindanao and Tausug showed their unification and made their forms of the kris yet kept their stylistic forms found in the trunk section which showed their specific point of origin. This is IMHO, search my threads again for references.

Thank you for the clarification. I've been a spectator in the various threads you've referenced, so I'm at least minimally aware of how this discussion has evolved.

I'm still a bit confused, and I've sent you a PM.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi Mabagani,

Thanks for the link and the rest.
I humbly think that information scattered on threads could be organized so as to better be acessed by everyone.
I wouldn't mind host it if necessary. The point is that my time is not that much concerning seeking all threads and reading them all at this point.

I also have received some pages from Cato's book.

Thanks

[MABAGANI]

Some of my writings regarding the timeline run contrary to the author cited but I've substantiated my statements in various threads.

[Mark]

Since no one seemed to be inclined to answer the basic question posed -- do the patterns on a kris have a particular meaning, and if so, what is it? -- I tried following Mabagani's suggestion to search past threads.

Unfortunately, so much has been written on this forum (and the old UBB forum) on kris that there are literally thousands of posts to wade through. I am pretty well trained in key-word searching (being a lawyer and all), but this is one bit of information that you can't easily zero in on with key word searching. I could not even find a thread specifically on the topic of these patterns, for instance.

Can't one of our numerous kris experts here take a minute to teach us ignorant ones?

Mark

PS: One thing that I remember being written by our Malay keris experts is that the pattern described as similar to that of a kukri may have had (at least in keris) a similar meaning -- i.e., that of the Shiva Linga or Shiva's Trident -- and that the little curl is indeed representative of an elephant's trunk. Perhaps a "keris guy" could comment on the similar features in the Moro kris?

[RhysMichael]

I do not have the answer but I did remember that Fredrico's site has the names in the major dialects. Perhaps these can send the search in the right direction. Those terms are here

http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html

[Pusaka]

This is something I am also very interested in. I have noticed that the number of projections on the elephant structure (gajah) varies between keris. I was wondering about the numerology involved. Has it got something to do with rank/class? For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example.

[Pusaka]

The elephant and snake/dragon are connected with indra which shows us the keris Vedic origins. The Keris blade is described in terms of a snake in motion or a snake in meditation depending if it is straight or not. Note that the Keris also represent Heaven and earth. The keris also is/was given offerings to insure it held its power. The snake and elephant can also be seen on Tibetan Phurbas, ancient Indian daggers and Keris (note the Indian influence in all). Indera was the god worshiped by the ancient Warriors of India. The whole thing points towards a strong Indian influence in keris. Also note that the first Keris in Indonesia appeared with the coming of Indian rule.
The Keris has its origins in ancient India, it represents the mystically charged thunder bolt weapon held by Indera.

"Indra is the chief deity and the god of war and rain, the greatest concerns of the people at that time. He separated the heavens and the earth by defeating Vrtra, a snake-dragon representation of chaos and obstacles. Another Vedic myth describes his defeat of Vrtra using wind and a thunderbolt as his weapons, enabling the monsoon rains to end. Indra must be strengthened with the drink soma, provided by worshippers, to accomplish this task. "

http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduis...vedic_gods.htm

[nechesh]

I think that the reason no one wants to wade into this one is that frankly, no one really knows these answers for sure. We can certainly make a lot of guesses and who knows, they might be right, but much of this stuff is just lost information. There have been many in the more recent keris mysticism movement who will claim knowledge to the specific meaning of these parts and if you want you can take their word for it. If it has that symbolic meaning to them today then it is certainly true....for them. I have heard a number of things in regards to the "ron do", those curls on the top of the tail area and the greneng that follows behind it. One is that it is symbolic of writing and is an actual prayer. This seems to be harder to apply to the filings on Moro kris, especially later ones where these marks do not look all that much like writing to me. The figure common on the gandik side is most probably meant as an elephant, perhaps Ganesha, though of course, in Indo keris there are many variations that include Singo, Naga and human figures. Most of the Moro kris seem more elephant like, but i have an old Sulu piece that i would swear is a naga form.

[Pusaka]

I believe that left and right flanks of the keris represent order and chaos (elephant/indra and dragon/Vrtra) actually I have heard people referring to the structure opposite from the elephant as the dragon. What is interesting though is the specific numerology of these components.

[Pusaka]

Edited your photo to explain the idea

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I believe that left and right flanks of the keris represent order and chaos (elephant/indra and dragon/Vrtra) actually I have heard people referring to the structure opposite from the elephant as the dragon. What is interesting though is the specific numerology of these components.

This is exactly what i mean. I don't believe you will find any basis for these ideas in any ancient writings and in all probability none of this was intented in the origin of the keris......However, like any system this does not make it invalid if it works for you within the context of the system. Many interesting ideas will no doubt come out of our silat friends on this subject, but we need to keep in mind that these ideas are relatively new and probably have nothing what-so-ever to do with the origins of the keris form. But if it works for you, run with it.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Thank you all gentlemen,

I think this is a very important element of reference that deserves a bit more of study anf of systemization.

The thread picked up speed and perhaps somebody like Battara or Fred Malibago could do something of a copy and paste for reason that some will know.

Thank you Pusaka for illustrating my photo.
This is absolutely fascinating.

Thank you all

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Hi all,
First of all, I have to admit that I'm not an expert on Sundang (or anything else, I believe ), and I don't have all the answer.
Just as Mr Antonio Cejunior said, the Ricikan (or 'lattice work' ) have meanings, at least in Java. I don't know whether this philosphical meanings may apply to other blades from other region like Bali, Bugis, Malay or Moro. But since many experts believe that keris' origin was from Java and spread-out to archipelago when Majapahit kingdom reign (ca. 12/13 C.), it might be helpful to study the Javanese keris, as an aid to understand the meaning of the form, in this case, the lattice work.

Secondly, I have to warn all of the forumities that these kind of meanings are very subjectives, and may change from time-to-time, even from person-to-person, as 'pusaka' is always a private matters. This meaning usually passed by orally from generation to generation, so a good-old literature may not exist. The oldest reliable literature about the meaning of ricikan/dhapur keris is Serat Centhini, written ca. early 19 C. Other was written by Prince Karanggayam, ca. 16 C., but it's authenticity/reliability is questioned. So, the meaning I propose here is "as told by" the elders, and may not apply to as far as Majapahit era. Tracing the real meaning of it in Majapahit era could be very hard, if not impossible, since no reliable written evidence known about it exist.

Now about the ricikans :
The Elephant's trunk look-alike (pics.3 by Mr. Pusaka) called "sekar kacang" (sekar=flower, kacang=peanuts) or telale gajah (elephant's trunk). It's curled shape symbolize humble and man's obligation to worship The Almighty. Other non-curled shape called "Sekar Kacang Pogok" (broken) symbolize "dignity/proudness" and reserved for upper rank/class, as in dhapur Pasopati. The Upper class is (surely) expected to show their dignity and authorities to keep the obedience from his community, and thus, may maintain order.

The Jalu Memet (Jalu=taji=cockspur, memet=hidden) is the thorn-like protruding in the 'armpit' of Sekar Kacang (in the 3rd pics posted by Pusaka). Symbolize "the man cockspur" (just see it inside your brief, ). It should keep hidden, and use it in "the right way at the right place and in the right time" (with the right partner, indeed). The teaching behind it may go on and on.

The thorn-like protruding below the Jalu Memet called "lambe gajah" (lambe=bibir=lips). It symbolize the mouth, the teaching is simple : "watch your mouth/words"

Now the other side.. The Greneng (the lattice works on the right part of 1st pics by Mr. Antonio).

The Greneng consist of several ricikans :

The very first, single thorn, (just after the blade meets the ganja/crosspiece, pics. 1) called "thingil", means small things, symbolize as it means, the teaching is 'do not ignore the small/trivial things, keep the open and keen mind'
Pair of thorn just after the thingil called "ri pandan" = pandanus thorn. I don't know what it's meaning, yet

Just after the ri pandan, came the "W" shape (or "M", if the tip pointed down) called "ron dha". It resembles the "dha" characters in javanese 'font'. Just after 1st ron dha, came the ri pandan again, then the ron dha again, then double thorn of "kanyut" resembling the "Ma" characters (some book may define Kanyut as a curled-tail ganja). The double "ron dha" assembly called "greneng sungsun"=double/stacked greneng. All characters could be read as "dhadha ma". Serat Centhini interpret this as "The Death (MAti) is came from/inside your chest (DHADHA)" According to Garret and Solyom, Yosopangarso (elder brother of Empu Djeno, the son of Empu Supowinangun) interpret it as "My Chest likes thunder." Other elders interpret it as "Lapang Dada", means patience/tolerance. The "Greneng" word itself means grumble/complaining.
The whole assembly than could be interpreted as 'Live your life with spirit and patience, do not ignore the small things and do not grumble/complaining about your fate. We all will die after all"

Javanese culture is a very unique. When new culture/value came, they may 'reinterpret' their existing culture according to the new culture rather then completly changing their customs. Thus, the old art/culture may still being kept, but with new "interpretation", as in wayang, keris and other cultural ceremonies.

Wish may help.

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

[Pusaka]

I think the Keris is older then the kris. Perhaps the Keris shape influenced the shaping of native long bladed bush knives so that gradually they developed and took on a more keris like appearance. I think that they are probably pre Islamic also. The general symbolism would be the same though.

[Pusaka]

I think many of the vedic symbolisms involved with the keris are touch upon in this article http://www.yoga-age.com/articles/lightonvrtra.html

[Pusaka]

You will often hear people say that a Keris should have an odd number of luk to be considered as a good keris. If you ask them why, they most certainly don’t know why.
If we count the number of luk on the side of Indra we will see that there is more then on the side of Vrtra. Symbolically it represents that the Keris is a good keris as Indra has won the battle over Vrtra.The right hand side aspects (good) win over the left hand aspects (evil). If the number of lux was even this would not be the case and the keris would then be considered a bad keris.

[Pusaka]

If we remember that Indra is a war god the elephant he rides is a battle elephant. War elephants often had headdresses attached to the head and trunk. These armour headdresses often had sharp spikes attached. This would explain the spikes on the Gajah as being an elephant armour headdress.

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

I would appreciate if you gentlemen could enlighten me on the meanings of what I call lattice work in the right and the left side of the flaring of the blade. I'm most curious to learn as I am aware they have meanings.
It appears to me that the right side has somehow the shape of an elephant?
Also, is the origin of the Kris has been established?
Indonesia or Philippines?
Who influenced who?
Is it essentially a Muslim sword?

Short answers to a tall order-
Assuming the keris arrived in the Philippines and paralleled development according to traces of early written history from the 9th century as evidence of influence and connectedness to neighboring kingdoms,
the changes from keris to kris occurred after the Muslim conversion in the 15th century as early as the 17th century (note: one of the earliest accounts of the kris as a cut and thrust weapon was found in writings by Dampier)
the longer explanation of why and where the evolution from keris to kris occurred is in another thread,
some of the symbolic meanings were pre-Islamic,
depending on which Moro group one is researching,
the symbolism differs from bird, naga to elephant etc. (some detailed meanings noted in this thread by keris experts)
Moro royalty recorded relationships to kingdoms of 15th century Johore, Melaka, Sumatra and Brunei.
One can not state the kris is "essentially" a Muslim sword because the kris and keris in the Philippines were also used and made by non-Muslims (examples appear among the Visayans, Katipunan, etc.)
imho

[Pusaka]

One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag

http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag

http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

Pusaka, your link to a commercial site is interesting, but does not really support your position. What "records" are you referring to? (Mind you: I'm genuinely interested, and not necessarily disagreeing with your theory.)

You've been down the meteorite path on this board before, and it did not end well.


Everyone please maintain civility lest this thread suffer similar fate.

[marto suwignyo]

This discussion has turn to a very interesting and maybe important direction for keris study, I feel.

I will to give my compliment to Mr. Pusaka for his original way to think about the keris and for his understanding to see the influence of Indian culture in the origin of the keris.

The origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. There are many theories and beliefs, and maybe now we can never know for truly where from comes the keris. But if we will to give a theory about keris origin, and if we will that people maybe accept that the theory we have is a little bit true, we must also to give evidence and/or a logic reasons that our theory is worth to consider as maybe true. Just an idea without evidence and without logic reasons is for pleasant discussion to fill in time if we drink coffee.

In this Forum several years past was also a discussion about keris origin. In this discussion appears this remark:-

"Actually,what I set out to do when I commenced my investigations into this matter was to try to establish the existence of a keris like dagger in India prior to an appearance in Jawa.My research into archaic forms was thorough.I failed to establish this existence ,and as a consequence ,was left with only Prambanan II."

This remark made by Mr. Alan Maisey. He talking about his early research to discover keris origin.

For people who interest in ideas about keris origin maybe is a good idea to read this thread. Here is the link:-
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000607.html

About meteor in the keris blade.

This also something that many times people discussion. In Jawa we believe that keris have make with meteor since long ago. But this our belief, this has never been prove, except for the keris from Prambanan meteor and that only to begin about maybe 1800. For people with the interest in using meteor for making keris blade maybe a good idea to read the work of Mr. Bennet Bronson :- "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris", publish in "Historical Metallurgy" Vol.21.No.1, 1987.

Mr. Pusaka again I will to give you my compliment for your original way to think. I hope you do not lose your interest with the keris and that you will to continue your study with the serious and academic approach.

[Andrew]

Outstanding post, Marto. Thank you for the sage words.