Unknown coat-of-arms dating to the 16th century

Jean-Marc S. · 18th March 2012, 08:22 PM

Hello,

Please, what is this coat-of-arms found on the blade of this two handed sword dating to the 16th century ?

Thanks in advance,

jm

Indianajones · 18th March 2012, 11:25 PM

Hello Jean -Marc,
I am not an expert on swords but I believe the coat of arms (and signs on the rest of the sword) are partly english, partly French. The coat of arms also exists of 4 combined; I do know the lower left part very well as the crosses are the sign of the Templars!
I believe the stretched out lions above that (crosses-section) are of English origin and the 'Fleur de Li's' (largely depicted on the sword and topright part of ct f arm) are French.
Perhaps this little info may just point you in the right searchdirection?!?!?

Good luck, Wouter

Norman McCormick · 19th March 2012, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Hello Jean -Marc,
I am not an expert on swords but I believe the coat of arms (and signs on the rest of the sword) are partly english, partly French. The coat of arms also exists of 4 combined; I do know the lower left part very well as the crosses are the sign of the Templars!
I believe the stretched out lions above that (crosses-section) are of English origin and the 'Fleur de Li's' (largely depicted on the sword and topright part of ct f arm) are French.
Perhaps this little info may just point you in the right searchdirection?!?!?

Good luck, Wouter

Hi,
I think you'll find that the cross is known as the Cross of Jerusalem amongst others and nothing to do with the Templars and the lions are facing the wrong way to be English although the French attribution may have some substance.
Regards,
Norman.

cornelistromp · 19th March 2012, 09:30 AM

The makers mark stamped on is of the family Stantler (Munchen/Passau till 1647).
I would start the search in Germany and Switzerland.
I will consult some books, can you post pictures of the sword?

best,

Jean-Marc S. · 19th March 2012, 12:53 PM

Hello all,

Thanks so much for your advised comments on this two handed sword. It appears that the coat-of-arms represents:

First quarter: Swabia (Germany) or reversed three passing lions (England) ?
Second quarter: Three Fleurs de Lys (French Royalty)
Third quarter: Kingdom of Jerusalem
Fourth quarter: Old burgundy, or Lord of Plouasne ???

The crown is a Royal one.

Could it be descendants of Ferdinand II

?

Thanks for your help,

jm

Jean-Marc S. · 19th March 2012, 04:18 PM

Pics of two handed sword

Matchlock · 19th March 2012, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

The makers mark stamped on is of the family Stantler (Munchen/Passau till 1647).
I would start the search in Germany and Switzerland.
I will consult some books, can you post pictures of the sword?

best,

Exactly, Jasper,

The fact that the characteristic South German (Bavarian) orb and cross mark was deeply struck into the iron when still warm points towards the Stantler workshops, who are known to have used this mark for armory orders. As the overall shape and the style of the etching denote this blade was almost certainly wrought by the workshop of Wolfgang Stantler, Munich, ca. 1590-1600.

A similar, finely etched two-sword blade, Swiss, dated 1617, was hammered down at Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, 6 September 2007, for 11.000 SFr - see attachments.

Best,
Michael

Jean-Marc S. · 19th March 2012, 07:59 PM

here are some additional pics. Thanks.

jm

Matchlock · 20th March 2012, 07:42 PM

After intense stylistic research I think that the style of the etching represents the early 17th-century taste; this may be an Austrian sword from the Trabanten-Leibgarde (body guard) of an Austrian (Salzburg?) archbishop, ca. 1620.
The crosses in the corners to me do not seem to be Templar's crosses but rather those of an archbishopry.

m

Indianajones · 20th March 2012, 08:36 PM

Hello, no I was indeed wrong about ascribing the crosses-section to the Templars as Norman already put straight. It is from Jerusalem (which led me to this mistake as the Templars have resided there) and have added pic of (full) coat of arms of Jerusalem.
The Lions are facing the wrong direction to be English, though the way they are depicted is quite in an 'English style' (streched/compressed), isnt it?!

Quite an interesting sword I must say! Am curious about the outcome.
Regards, Wouter

Jean-Marc S. · 20th March 2012, 09:42 PM

Hello Guys,

Thanks for your help in the identification of this coat-of-arms. The royal crown, together with the kingdom of jerusalem quarter suggests royal descendants of Frederick II (not Ferdinand II).

As mentioned by David M. Bertie (Curatorial Officer – Documentation & Conservation.
Role - Line manager for documentation and conservation staff; collections management; curator for Banff Museum. Collections specialism: family history ; ecclesiastical history , heraldry).

He wrote:

Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor, married Yolante, the daughter of John, King of Jerusalem. Their grandson Conradin, Duke of Swabia, had no issue. Succeeding Dukes of Swabia may have considered that the right to bear the Jerusalem arms passed to them, along with anything else they inherited. This is simply a suggestion to explain the occurrence together of the Jerusalem arms and three lions. Swabia, Burgundy -- suggests an origin somewhere in the western Holy Roman Empire.

My suggestion regarding Swabia for the three lions arose from scouring Lauda & Maclagan. That was the only connection to Jerusalem that I could find in their book.

Norman McCormick · 20th March 2012, 11:27 PM

Hi Wouter,
The lions indeed have the stretched/compressed aspect that is indicative of the English lions and with so many versions of the Cross it can sometimes be difficult to pinpoint or remember an exact attribution.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jean-Marc S. · 22nd March 2012, 06:08 PM

Hello,

I found this chroniken dating to the renaissance period. See the coat-of-arms on the flag, which is partly similar to the coat-of-arms etched on the blade of the two-handed sword, dating to the 16th century.

Interesting...

jm

Matchlock · 22nd March 2012, 10:34 PM

Hi Jean-Marc,

This, though obviously flipped horizontally, should be the Royal Arms of England indeed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Arms_of_England

The heraldic cross with two crossbars - à double traverse - is generally refererred to as croix de Lorraine/croix d'Anjou:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croix_de_Lorraine

Best,
Michael

Jean-Marc S. · 22nd March 2012, 10:44 PM

Hi Michael,

You are right !
For information, when I bought this German manufactured two-hand sword, the seller (dealing with antique medieval and renaissance arms and armors) told me he got it in a family living in a castle in Yorkshire, England.

Thanks,

My best,

jm

Indianajones · 24th March 2012, 01:25 PM

Just a note; on both sides the topsection of the 8 is a coat of arms and the lower a person. We can therefore assume the coat of arms and the person are related.
Question one; would this person (on both sides) be the same? (my guts tells yes, as its on one sword)Q two; Would one of the coat of arms be his 'own' and the other (side) from an established aliance perhaps?? (Single; Fleur de li's ct-o-arms be his own)

18th March 2012, 08:22 PM	#1
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	Unknown coat-of-arms dating to the 16th century Hello, Please, what is this coat-of-arms found on the blade of this two handed sword dating to the 16th century ? Thanks in advance, jm Attached Images

19th March 2012, 12:53 PM	#5
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	Pics of two handed sword (16th century) on Landsknecht captain full armor Hello all, Thanks so much for your advised comments on this two handed sword. It appears that the coat-of-arms represents: First quarter: Swabia (Germany) or reversed three passing lions (England) ? Second quarter: Three Fleurs de Lys (French Royalty) Third quarter: Kingdom of Jerusalem Fourth quarter: Old burgundy, or Lord of Plouasne ??? The crown is a Royal one. Could it be descendants of Ferdinand II ? Thanks for your help, jm

19th March 2012, 04:18 PM	#6
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	Pics of two handed sword 16th century Pics of two handed sword Attached Images

19th March 2012, 07:59 PM	#8
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	Additional pics here are some additional pics. Thanks. jm Attached Images

20th March 2012, 08:36 PM	#10
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hello, no I was indeed wrong about ascribing the crosses-section to the Templars as Norman already put straight. It is from Jerusalem (which led me to this mistake as the Templars have resided there) and have added pic of (full) coat of arms of Jerusalem. The Lions are facing the wrong direction to be English, though the way they are depicted is quite in an 'English style' (streched/compressed), isnt it?! Quite an interesting sword I must say! Am curious about the outcome. Regards, Wouter Attached Images

18th March 2012, 11:25 PM	#2
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hello Jean -Marc, I am not an expert on swords but I believe the coat of arms (and signs on the rest of the sword) are partly english, partly French. The coat of arms also exists of 4 combined; I do know the lower left part very well as the crosses are the sign of the Templars! I believe the stretched out lions above that (crosses-section) are of English origin and the 'Fleur de Li's' (largely depicted on the sword and topright part of ct f arm) are French. Perhaps this little info may just point you in the right searchdirection?!?!? Good luck, Wouter

19th March 2012, 09:30 AM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	The makers mark stamped on is of the family Stantler (Munchen/Passau till 1647). I would start the search in Germany and Switzerland. I will consult some books, can you post pictures of the sword? best,

20th March 2012, 07:42 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	After intense stylistic research I think that the style of the etching represents the early 17th-century taste; this may be an Austrian sword from the Trabanten-Leibgarde (body guard) of an Austrian (Salzburg?) archbishop, ca. 1620. The crosses in the corners to me do not seem to be Templar's crosses but rather those of an archbishopry. m

20th March 2012, 09:42 PM	#11
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	Royal descendants of Frederick II ? Hello Guys, Thanks for your help in the identification of this coat-of-arms. The royal crown, together with the kingdom of jerusalem quarter suggests royal descendants of Frederick II (not Ferdinand II). As mentioned by David M. Bertie (Curatorial Officer – Documentation & Conservation. Role - Line manager for documentation and conservation staff; collections management; curator for Banff Museum. Collections specialism: family history ; ecclesiastical history , heraldry). He wrote: Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor, married Yolante, the daughter of John, King of Jerusalem. Their grandson Conradin, Duke of Swabia, had no issue. Succeeding Dukes of Swabia may have considered that the right to bear the Jerusalem arms passed to them, along with anything else they inherited. This is simply a suggestion to explain the occurrence together of the Jerusalem arms and three lions. Swabia, Burgundy -- suggests an origin somewhere in the western Holy Roman Empire. My suggestion regarding Swabia for the three lions arose from scouring Lauda & Maclagan. That was the only connection to Jerusalem that I could find in their book.

20th March 2012, 11:27 PM	#12
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Wouter, The lions indeed have the stretched/compressed aspect that is indicative of the English lions and with so many versions of the Cross it can sometimes be difficult to pinpoint or remember an exact attribution. My Regards, Norman.

22nd March 2012, 06:08 PM	#13
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	See coat-of-arms on flag (dating to the renaissance period) Hello, I found this chroniken dating to the renaissance period. See the coat-of-arms on the flag, which is partly similar to the coat-of-arms etched on the blade of the two-handed sword, dating to the 16th century. Interesting... jm Attached Images

22nd March 2012, 10:34 PM	#14
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jean-Marc, This, though obviously flipped horizontally, should be the Royal Arms of England indeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Arms_of_England The heraldic cross with two crossbars - à double traverse - is generally refererred to as croix de Lorraine/croix d'Anjou: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croix_de_Lorraine Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 22nd March 2012 at 11:19 PM.

22nd March 2012, 10:44 PM	#15
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	Royal coat-of-arms of England Hi Michael, You are right ! For information, when I bought this German manufactured two-hand sword, the seller (dealing with antique medieval and renaissance arms and armors) told me he got it in a family living in a castle in Yorkshire, England. Thanks, My best, jm

24th March 2012, 01:25 PM	#16
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Just a note; on both sides the topsection of the 8 is a coat of arms and the lower a person. We can therefore assume the coat of arms and the person are related. Question one; would this person (on both sides) be the same? (my guts tells yes, as its on one sword)Q two; Would one of the coat of arms be his 'own' and the other (side) from an established aliance perhaps?? (Single; Fleur de li's ct-o-arms be his own)