Odd Afghan find for ID

archer · 6th November 2011, 02:27 AM

This cast steel dagger was found in rubble in Afghanistan. It is a somewhat crude casting, with a full size grip area 5 1/4 inch blade of Choora shape? overall 9 7/8s inch. The odd pommel shape reminds me of a Zafar type support, but, craftsmanship falls short.
How was it used?
It rings nicely. Was cast steel ever used for weapons? I believe that cast steel was used for Straight Razors , sheep shearing blades, etc. Were for example, any of the one piece Chilanums, cast and then hand finished? Casting an ornate hilt would have practical in those daggers with a wootz blade attached.

Any comments or ideas welcome, Steve

spiral · 6th November 2011, 03:37 PM

The cast steel you refer to was cast during the smelting process into ingots that were then forged to make razors etc.

The razors ,shears etc. that say "cast steel" on them were not cast, they were forged.

Spiral

AJ1356 · 6th November 2011, 04:00 PM

This is very strange, do you know where in Afghanistan was this found? I have never heard of carst iron or steel weapons. It could be something new, probably strictly decorative.

archer · 6th November 2011, 10:05 PM

Spiral, Thanks for the explanation of cast steels manufacturing steps.

AJ1356, The story was found by US Army forces, location unknown. Handling it
I would have said made as a toy for a child. The odd part is the hilt size will easily accommodate an adults hand. Maybe it is a ritual item. I'm hoping someone has seen this odd form before that would go a long way to answering the puzzle.

Jim McDougall · 7th November 2011, 04:08 AM

This dagger seems to me remarkably like Indian 'chilanum', which commonly of course have variations of transversely extended bar in place of pommel, and often temporally resemble anthromorphic style hilts of ancient times in degree.
The crossguard or quillon block also resembles these type daggers in some of the variations, with these kinds of weapons from N.India/Deccan, and with the bud terminals (Deccani style 17th c. 'Elgood' p.117, "Hindu Arms and Ritual").

Interestingly the pommel 'bar' with upturned stylized dragonheads resemble daggers using this form from Vijayanagara of examples captured at Adoni in 1689 and taken to the Bikaner armoury in Rajasthan. Much of the south of Afghanistan was controlled by Mughals in N.India while Safavids controlled the west, and these type dragonheads were both Safavid and Ottoman in favored motif.

The dagger form itself is termed a 'khapwah' ("Art of the Muslim Knight", p.185) and this interesting variant reflects amalgamation of the Pashtun 'choora' blade and hilt elements of chilanum style featuring Deccani and N. Indian characteristics.

It is always hard to judge actual age of a weapon from photos, but there does seem to be genuine aging in the metal commensurate with its stated discovery in rubble supposing having been in situ in the structure for some time. It would seem quite possible to have been an early to mid 18th c. item.
I would point out that many weapons of India have been viewed misleadingly as unusually small in certain cases, and in Afghan regions the axes known as 'lohar' when actually handled seem unintimidating in size. Many of these kinds of weapons were small but quite deadly when used in close contact and against unsuspecting or indisposed victims, and were covertly hidden in clothing.
There is no reason to suspect this is a ritual weapon, but representative of the confluence of forms and styles typical in these regions, and quite a fascinating variant. Thank you for sharing this!

All best regards,
Jim

ariel · 7th November 2011, 03:24 PM

A marriage of a Choora blade with a Zafar Takieh-type handle. Obviously, not a very popular design, and we are unlikely to count it as the first example of a previously-unknown type :-)

Superficially, the casting technique would disqualify it from being a weapon: forging removes impurities, eliminates air bubbles etc, etc. However, human body is soft and squishy, and any hard metal object would do well against it.
Humanity suffered a lot of casualties from cast bronze weapons.

Who knows why and when this thing was made.....

6th November 2011, 02:27 AM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Odd Afghan find for ID This cast steel dagger was found in rubble in Afghanistan. It is a somewhat crude casting, with a full size grip area 5 1/4 inch blade of Choora shape? overall 9 7/8s inch. The odd pommel shape reminds me of a Zafar type support, but, craftsmanship falls short. How was it used? It rings nicely. Was cast steel ever used for weapons? I believe that cast steel was used for Straight Razors , sheep shearing blades, etc. Were for example, any of the one piece Chilanums, cast and then hand finished? Casting an ornate hilt would have practical in those daggers with a wootz blade attached. Any comments or ideas welcome, Steve Attached Images

6th November 2011, 03:37 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	The cast steel you refer to was cast during the smelting process into ingots that were then forged to make razors etc. The razors ,shears etc. that say "cast steel" on them were not cast, they were forged. Spiral

6th November 2011, 04:00 PM	#3
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	This is very strange, do you know where in Afghanistan was this found? I have never heard of carst iron or steel weapons. It could be something new, probably strictly decorative.

6th November 2011, 10:05 PM	#4
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Spiral, Thanks for the explanation of cast steels manufacturing steps. AJ1356, The story was found by US Army forces, location unknown. Handling it I would have said made as a toy for a child. The odd part is the hilt size will easily accommodate an adults hand. Maybe it is a ritual item. I'm hoping someone has seen this odd form before that would go a long way to answering the puzzle.

7th November 2011, 04:08 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This dagger seems to me remarkably like Indian 'chilanum', which commonly of course have variations of transversely extended bar in place of pommel, and often temporally resemble anthromorphic style hilts of ancient times in degree. The crossguard or quillon block also resembles these type daggers in some of the variations, with these kinds of weapons from N.India/Deccan, and with the bud terminals (Deccani style 17th c. 'Elgood' p.117, "Hindu Arms and Ritual"). Interestingly the pommel 'bar' with upturned stylized dragonheads resemble daggers using this form from Vijayanagara of examples captured at Adoni in 1689 and taken to the Bikaner armoury in Rajasthan. Much of the south of Afghanistan was controlled by Mughals in N.India while Safavids controlled the west, and these type dragonheads were both Safavid and Ottoman in favored motif. The dagger form itself is termed a 'khapwah' ("Art of the Muslim Knight", p.185) and this interesting variant reflects amalgamation of the Pashtun 'choora' blade and hilt elements of chilanum style featuring Deccani and N. Indian characteristics. It is always hard to judge actual age of a weapon from photos, but there does seem to be genuine aging in the metal commensurate with its stated discovery in rubble supposing having been in situ in the structure for some time. It would seem quite possible to have been an early to mid 18th c. item. I would point out that many weapons of India have been viewed misleadingly as unusually small in certain cases, and in Afghan regions the axes known as 'lohar' when actually handled seem unintimidating in size. Many of these kinds of weapons were small but quite deadly when used in close contact and against unsuspecting or indisposed victims, and were covertly hidden in clothing. There is no reason to suspect this is a ritual weapon, but representative of the confluence of forms and styles typical in these regions, and quite a fascinating variant. Thank you for sharing this! All best regards, Jim

7th November 2011, 03:24 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A marriage of a Choora blade with a Zafar Takieh-type handle. Obviously, not a very popular design, and we are unlikely to count it as the first example of a previously-unknown type :-) Superficially, the casting technique would disqualify it from being a weapon: forging removes impurities, eliminates air bubbles etc, etc. However, human body is soft and squishy, and any hard metal object would do well against it. Humanity suffered a lot of casualties from cast bronze weapons. Who knows why and when this thing was made.....