Snaphaunce Lock for I.D.

rickystl · 24th July 2011, 08:22 PM

Hello all. Here is the latest addition to my lock collection. This Snaphaunce lock is in very good condition. All complete and in working condition. Does not appear to have been cleaned. No pitting what so ever. I'm confident this is a European lock. It has a couple of features not found on later Middle Eastern copies. And a better quality forging. The hammer and lail of the lock plate appear to be English (?). There are no marks of any kind. The top screw is a real mystery. Two sets of course threads. The bottom of the top screw has no threads and - for the momment - stuck in the bottom jaw of the hammer. Almost as if it were staked in?? Once I get the top screw released, maybe I'll have a better idea of how it holds the flint in the jaws. Anyway, my reference material for early European arms is very limited. Maybe one of you out there can better identify the origin of this lock. I do think it is both European and very early. Possibly dating to the very late 16th or very early 17th century. Your thoughts please. And thanks for looking. Rick.

Matchlock · 25th July 2011, 06:07 PM

Hi rickystl,

I guess you said about everything that can be said.

Though widely copied in the Arabian countries, this one definitely does look English. The turned jaw screw and especially the twofold breakthru ornament on the pan cover still reflect the early 16th c. Renaissance artistic taste, so I would suggest a date of origin of early 17th c., ca. 1610-30, which makes your snaphaunce mechanism quite rare and not without value.

It was either mounted on a military musket with wide fishtail buttstock or on a pistol.

I attach some characteristic English snaphaunce guns of ca. 1580-1620 for comparison. The earliest of them still adopted the safety catch on the rear of the lock plate from the wheellock.

The puffer on top is of ca. 1600-10,
the heavy musket dated 1590, the steel missing; both photograhed by the author in the Tower of London in 1991, now preserved in the Royal Armouries Leeds;
the petronel with the downcurved buttstock dated 1584,
the inlaid pair of English pistols with the pear shaped pommels ca. 1615, preserved in the Kremlin Museum, Moskaw;
the plain English military musket with the fishtail butt ca. 1620, interestingly enough still equipped with a safety catch, preserved in the Real Armería Madrid.

Best,
Michael

rickystl · 26th July 2011, 03:40 PM

Michael: Thank you so much for your response. And, THANKS for the really cool pics of very early specimens!!! Great to look at. The one notable difference with my lock is the wider frizzen face (battery). But the other features, like you say, are decidedly English. Hmmmm. The tumbler on this lock is not even worn. As well, the lock bolt threads show no evidence of having been mounted on a gun in the past. Under magnafication, I don't see any evidence of blasting, cleaning, etc. This is leading me to believe this lock was never mounted on a gun. Again, thank you so much for your imput. Rick.

Fernando K · 26th July 2011, 03:41 PM

Hola, Rick

La pieza que te falta es una tuerca (nut, female nut) que se enrosca en el tornillo que está fijo en la mandíbula inferior, y que cierra las mandíbulas. He visto esta solución en algunos chenapanes escoceses (scotish snapahunce).

Fernando K

Hello, Rick

The part that you need is a nut (nut, nut female) that is screwed into the screw is fixed to the lower jaw and closes the jaws. I've seen this solution in some chenapanes Scots (scotish snapahunce).

Fernando K

rickystl · 26th July 2011, 03:49 PM

Hi Fernando!!! Like some Scottish Pistols? That's very interesting. I've never seen this type of top screw before. I'll keep your recommendation in mind while I study it further this weekend. This lock is becoming very interesting. Again, thanks for responding. Rick.

Matchlock · 26th July 2011, 06:40 PM

Hi Rick,

I do think it was mounted but only for a short time: the steel (it's not really a battery as with snaphaunces the pan cover is not an integral part of the steel) shows flint scratches.
Still it is in amazing condition!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 26th July 2011, 07:23 PM

For comparison:

One of the better quality North African early 19th c. snaphaunces.

Best,
Michael

rickystl · 26th July 2011, 08:02 PM

Michael: You are correct on both counts. Don't know how I missed that??

The frizzen does show scratches, but not many. When did they refer to a frizzen as a "battery"? I thought it was during this early period? Maybe a little later in the Doglock period? Thanks, Rick.

Matchlock · 30th July 2011, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

The turned jaw screw and especially the twofold breakthru ornament on the pan cover still reflect the early 16th c. Renaissance artistic taste, so I would suggest a date of origin of early 17th c., ca. 1610-30#
Best,
Michael

Rick: as you will remember from my first reply, I too have always felt that the cock jaw screw backed up the theory of a British/European origin as well.

Best,
m

rickystl · 30th July 2011, 09:28 PM

Well, I got the top screw off. It's not a top screw at all. No idication that it ever had threads on it. But, I'm 90% sure I know what it is. It's an iron tip from a ramrod from a Moroccan gun!!

What look like two sets of threads are not threads. The are straight cut to assist the shooter's grip while pulling the ramrod from the rifle. I've seen this design on iron ramrods on other Moroccan rifles. There are traces of threads in the lower jaw. I can see where the one end was cut and ground/filed and tapered. It was simply hammered into the lower jaw and the tiny tit on top of the hammer was bent slightly sideways to hold it all together. I bent the little tip straight again. Then a couple light taps with a hammer and it came apart. Amazingly, the patina of the "supposed" top screw matches the rest of the lock. So, what we have here is a lock in very good condition, thats missing it's top screw.

Usually when a lock is missing a top screw, it's also missing the top jaw. My best guess is that someone used the original top screw on another gun. Well, unless others disagree, I think I've solved the top screw mystery (?). I must admit it was fun. Fortunately, I have a spare Moroccan "parts" lock that still has it's original top screw. I think I can clean up the threads in the lower jaw to accept it. Rick.

Matchlock · 31st July 2011, 12:37 PM

Oh, Rick, what a discouraging outcome ...

m

rickystl · 31st July 2011, 04:36 PM

Hi Michael. Well, after picking myself up off the kitchen floor from a fit of kicking and crying, I'm OK now

However, I've located two original Moroccan "parts" locks, both styled after the English lock, and both have their original top screws!! I can get them both very cheap. I'm sure the patina wont be an exact match, but proper cleaning could make it close. I'll save this lock yet!!!

Actually, this has been a fun thread. Research, investigation, mystery, and contact with Brian Godwin. I'll report back after I fix the lock. Thanks again for all the assistance - and hand-holding!! LOL Rick.

24th July 2011, 08:22 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Snaphaunce Lock for I.D. Hello all. Here is the latest addition to my lock collection. This Snaphaunce lock is in very good condition. All complete and in working condition. Does not appear to have been cleaned. No pitting what so ever. I'm confident this is a European lock. It has a couple of features not found on later Middle Eastern copies. And a better quality forging. The hammer and lail of the lock plate appear to be English (?). There are no marks of any kind. The top screw is a real mystery. Two sets of course threads. The bottom of the top screw has no threads and - for the momment - stuck in the bottom jaw of the hammer. Almost as if it were staked in?? Once I get the top screw released, maybe I'll have a better idea of how it holds the flint in the jaws. Anyway, my reference material for early European arms is very limited. Maybe one of you out there can better identify the origin of this lock. I do think it is both European and very early. Possibly dating to the very late 16th or very early 17th century. Your thoughts please. And thanks for looking. Rick. Attached Images

25th July 2011, 06:07 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi rickystl, I guess you said about everything that can be said. Though widely copied in the Arabian countries, this one definitely does look English. The turned jaw screw and especially the twofold breakthru ornament on the pan cover still reflect the early 16th c. Renaissance artistic taste, so I would suggest a date of origin of early 17th c., ca. 1610-30, which makes your snaphaunce mechanism quite rare and not without value. It was either mounted on a military musket with wide fishtail buttstock or on a pistol. I attach some characteristic English snaphaunce guns of ca. 1580-1620 for comparison. The earliest of them still adopted the safety catch on the rear of the lock plate from the wheellock. The puffer on top is of ca. 1600-10, the heavy musket dated 1590, the steel missing; both photograhed by the author in the Tower of London in 1991, now preserved in the Royal Armouries Leeds; the petronel with the downcurved buttstock dated 1584, the inlaid pair of English pistols with the pear shaped pommels ca. 1615, preserved in the Kremlin Museum, Moskaw; the plain English military musket with the fishtail butt ca. 1620, interestingly enough still equipped with a safety catch, preserved in the Real Armería Madrid. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 25th July 2011 at 07:08 PM.

26th July 2011, 07:23 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	For comparison: One of the better quality North African early 19th c. snaphaunces. Best, Michael Attached Images

30th July 2011, 09:28 PM	#10
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Well, I got the top screw off. It's not a top screw at all. No idication that it ever had threads on it. But, I'm 90% sure I know what it is. It's an iron tip from a ramrod from a Moroccan gun!! What look like two sets of threads are not threads. The are straight cut to assist the shooter's grip while pulling the ramrod from the rifle. I've seen this design on iron ramrods on other Moroccan rifles. There are traces of threads in the lower jaw. I can see where the one end was cut and ground/filed and tapered. It was simply hammered into the lower jaw and the tiny tit on top of the hammer was bent slightly sideways to hold it all together. I bent the little tip straight again. Then a couple light taps with a hammer and it came apart. Amazingly, the patina of the "supposed" top screw matches the rest of the lock. So, what we have here is a lock in very good condition, thats missing it's top screw. Usually when a lock is missing a top screw, it's also missing the top jaw. My best guess is that someone used the original top screw on another gun. Well, unless others disagree, I think I've solved the top screw mystery (?). I must admit it was fun. Fortunately, I have a spare Moroccan "parts" lock that still has it's original top screw. I think I can clean up the threads in the lower jaw to accept it. Rick. Attached Images

26th July 2011, 03:40 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Michael: Thank you so much for your response. And, THANKS for the really cool pics of very early specimens!!! Great to look at. The one notable difference with my lock is the wider frizzen face (battery). But the other features, like you say, are decidedly English. Hmmmm. The tumbler on this lock is not even worn. As well, the lock bolt threads show no evidence of having been mounted on a gun in the past. Under magnafication, I don't see any evidence of blasting, cleaning, etc. This is leading me to believe this lock was never mounted on a gun. Again, thank you so much for your imput. Rick.

26th July 2011, 03:41 PM	#4
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hola, Rick La pieza que te falta es una tuerca (nut, female nut) que se enrosca en el tornillo que está fijo en la mandíbula inferior, y que cierra las mandíbulas. He visto esta solución en algunos chenapanes escoceses (scotish snapahunce). Fernando K Hello, Rick The part that you need is a nut (nut, nut female) that is screwed into the screw is fixed to the lower jaw and closes the jaws. I've seen this solution in some chenapanes Scots (scotish snapahunce). Fernando K

26th July 2011, 03:49 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Fernando!!! Like some Scottish Pistols? That's very interesting. I've never seen this type of top screw before. I'll keep your recommendation in mind while I study it further this weekend. This lock is becoming very interesting. Again, thanks for responding. Rick.

26th July 2011, 06:40 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Rick, I do think it was mounted but only for a short time: the steel (it's not really a battery as with snaphaunces the pan cover is not an integral part of the steel) shows flint scratches. Still it is in amazing condition! Best, Michael

26th July 2011, 08:02 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Michael: You are correct on both counts. Don't know how I missed that?? The frizzen does show scratches, but not many. When did they refer to a frizzen as a "battery"? I thought it was during this early period? Maybe a little later in the Doglock period? Thanks, Rick.

31st July 2011, 12:37 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Oh, Rick, what a discouraging outcome ... m

31st July 2011, 04:36 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Michael. Well, after picking myself up off the kitchen floor from a fit of kicking and crying, I'm OK now However, I've located two original Moroccan "parts" locks, both styled after the English lock, and both have their original top screws!! I can get them both very cheap. I'm sure the patina wont be an exact match, but proper cleaning could make it close. I'll save this lock yet!!! Actually, this has been a fun thread. Research, investigation, mystery, and contact with Brian Godwin. I'll report back after I fix the lock. Thanks again for all the assistance - and hand-holding!! LOL Rick.